Rumors swirl.... 2016 Civic Si 2.0T with about 230hp.

[martgsr]

Honda's last 2.0L non-turbo engine put out 237hp in the S2000. I suspect that for a turbocharged engine we'll see an output figure for the Si closer to 270 than 220, which would be more in line with the competition.

I wish you are right. But if i have to put money on this, i'll say they'll be closer to 220 hp than 270.

Sponsored

 

[firsthonda]

I just want to put regular gas in it. Have some strong pull and get good mileage when driven normal

 

[Regi_Derrick]

Honda has been hinting at the 2.0T for a while. Production begins in Anna in about 6 weeks, supposedly.

Isn't the new CR-V going on sale this year? Perhaps Honda is using the engine in the new CR-V? Perhaps its going on sale in the summer?

 

[Vtak Groceries]

Honda's last 2.0L non-turbo engine put out 237hp in the S2000. I suspect that for a turbocharged engine we'll see an output figure for the Si closer to 270 than 220, which would be more in line with the competition.

Incorrect.

Hondas BEST 2.0L engine made 240HP N/A. That engine was developed back in 1998 - 1999. Honda is not the same company they use to be. Just saying.... I want the most power from the Si too, but has to be realistic. Honda does not compete with HP numbers. They have always been behind the curve in HP/TQ because their engines although high output pet liter are just small. Honda uses their reliability status to make sales now IMO. 220-230hp 2.0T in the SI is my guess.

 

[Blindeye_03]

Incorrect.

Hondas BEST 2.0L engine made 240HP N/A. That engine was developed back in 1998 - 1999. Honda is not the same company they use to be. Just saying.... I want the most power from the Si too, but has to be realistic. Honda does not compete with HP numbers. They have always been behind the curve in HP/TQ because their engines although high output pet liter are just small. Honda uses their reliability status to make sales now IMO. 220-230hp 2.0T in the SI is my guess.

I wouldn't call the F20 motor "unreliable". The F22 was even more reliable with the slightly lower redline and revised? valve retainers that people install into the F20 to enhance high rpm reliability. I never owened an AP1 so I didn't that information closely. I just happened upon it when researching while owning an AP2.

Man I miss that car.. and the TSX (but I don't miss the TSX's repair bills).

 

[JYR]

Hopefully Geneva gives us full details of the coming Si and R.

 

[wi_badger]

All of this is just my opinion and is heavily slanted by my experience and desires for the new Si. Mostly it is me thinking out loud...

Honda is also all about reliability and engineering. The 2.0T from the Type-R de-tuned is likely to be more "reliable" long-term than 1.5T would be by increasing the power higher pressure, etc. There are many here far more intelligent on the engine tuning side of things but it would seem dropping the pressure on the turbo and tuning the ECU could drop the HP from 300+ easily. Does this allow Honda to keep the costs of manufacturing low by getting the parts for the 2.0T in bulk? The other option would be (I assume) needing to improve the strength of the components in the 1.5T for one low-volume model.

The question is what is Honda's performance goal with the Si. Since I currently own a 2006 TL 6-speed I compare everything to what I know. The 0-60 time on that TL is about 6 seconds, maybe a little under. The weight to HP is 13.5 lbs/HP (258 HP; 233 ft-lbs, 3,483 lbs) . While there have been times I would like more HP I have never needed more. The desire/feeling for additional power is a very personal decision based on the abilities of the driver among other factors. I don't or won't track the car and while I enjoy spirited driving I keep it safe on public roads.

Now the Civic Touring Sedan weighs in at 2,923 lbs. I will assume the Si will be comparable in weight. For me targeting the same Weight:HP ratio as my TL the SI would need 216 HP.

Now the Si is not designed to compete with the TL or that class. But from reading the forums it seems the consensus is Si should compete with the WRX, GTI, and Focus ST (arguably). So for comparison

2015 Focus ST weighs 3,223 lbs, has 252 HP, and a reported 0-60 of about 6.2. Ratio 12.8 lbs/hp.
2015 WRX weighs 3,267 lbs, has 268 HP, and a reported 0-60 of about 5.2. Ratio 12.2 lbs/hp.
2015 GTI weighs 3,031 lbs, has 220 HP, and a reported 0-60 of about 5.7. Ratio is 13.8 lbs/hp.

We all know Honda has always aimed for the middle of the pack. It is a blessing and a curse for them but goes well with their strong adherence to sound engineering. Everything is a trade off and they want to keep everything in the middle. It is likely why they are so successful with the Odyssey and Accord (in the world the car most driven by engineers is a Honda Accord).

So will Honda change their design philosophy and try to lead this group? If so they need to be closer to the WRX ratio (ignoring AWD and 0-60 times) of 12.2 which means at least 240 HP. Interesting that this is about 70 HP shy of the Type-R and about 70 HP more than the 1.5T. Once again middle of the pack. This also is not far off from the 220-230 HP reported by the rumor mill. I assume with the turbo the torque would roughly match the HP.

 

[JYR]

Honda has stated they want to be in the performance arena again. They won't get there by continuing to bring out mediocre vehicles.

They need to become the benchmark once again.

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

I think we could be mistaken to predict the Si HP based on the TypeR HP because it's possible, however improbable, that the Type R gets a bump. I'm thinking about the comparison to WRX vs STi - 268hp for wrx and what for the STi- 330 or something like that? (Someone please correct me on that number because I just don't know). Point being the STi isn't realistically 'that' much more powerful but has all the suspension, brake, and differential control to have the advantage.
I'll agree that 270hp si and 306hp TypeR might be too close -- a cat-delete and reflash and the Si would probably make 325 -- but if the TypeR bumps up, I could see 270.
All this said, I don't see them making this big of a leap. Not counting the 02Si mistake, the last bump from 99-00Si to the 06Si was 37 hp - about 23%. I would anticipate seeing the new Si as a 2.0T making a factory 245 (or some silly non-round number) with tonnes of easy power potential.

I believe the Si will have the potential that if you can't or won't pony up the extra cash for the TypeR, you'll be able to upgrade your Si to exceed the output.

*Most of this is speculation and total defecate.

 

[JYR]

I think we could be mistaken to predict the Si HP based on the TypeR HP because it's possible, however improbable, that the Type R gets a bump. I'm thinking about the comparison to WRX vs STi - 268hp for wrx and what for the STi- 330 or something like that? (Someone please correct me on that number because I just don't know). Point being the STi isn't realistically 'that' much more powerful but has all the suspension, brake, and differential control to have the advantage.
I'll agree that 270hp si and 306hp TypeR might be too close -- a cat-delete and reflash and the Si would probably make 325 -- but if the TypeR bumps up, I could see 270.
All this said, I don't see them making this big of a leap. Not counting the 02Si mistake, the last bump from 99-00Si to the 06Si was 37 hp - about 23%. I would anticipate seeing the new Si as a 2.0T making a factory 245 (or some silly non-round number) with tonnes of easy power potential.

I believe the Si will have the potential that if you can't or won't pony up the extra cash for the TypeR, you'll be able to upgrade your Si to exceed the output.

*Most of this is speculation and total defecate.

You are completely correct in your thought, at least this is how I am looking at this too. As someone else stated in another thread, the CTR will be priced with the GTI. No, the R will not be on the same playing field with the GTI, it will play with the Golf R, the Focus RS, the STi...and its much more than the power output of the car.

The Si will be what the WRX is to Subaru/GTi is to VW, etc. It's going to be a great car that is ready for more, and probably will have the ability to surpass the R with lots of modification, unless the Si doesn't receive the revo knuckle that the R will get. The R will likely be a car that leaves just a little bit more for the tuners to play with but at the point of its delivery will be amazing as it is as a complete package.

 

[Fletch]

I've skimmed through many pages of speculation for the upcoming Civic Si motor, and there has been quite a bit good information. I personally think the 10th gen Si will be equipped with a detuned 2.0t. Why? Not for the reasons that have been mentioned previously (from what I've seen)

The 1.5t is pushing 16.5 lbs of boost to make 174hp, right? IMO, it would be much more difficult for Honda to crank out an additonal 50hp with the 1.5t & still keep any sort of "Honda reliability" that we've come to expect... There would be next to no interchangable internals, because they would have to seek out higher quality parts to keep up with 20+ psi. Could you honestly expect Honda to equip the Si with a 1.5t making what, 22psi? How many miles would that last? Especially when you have car buyers not driving the car properly or maintaining the engine/car... I think it's much more plausible and cost efficient to expect the 2.0t from the upcoming CTR.

 

[Phosky]

Hondas BEST 2.0L engine made 240HP N/A. That engine was developed back in 1998 - 1999. Honda is not the same company they use to be. Just saying.... I want the most power from the Si too, but has to be realistic. Honda does not compete with HP numbers. They have always been behind the curve in HP/TQ because their engines although high output pet liter are just small. Honda uses their reliability status to make sales now IMO. 220-230hp 2.0T in the SI is my guess.

If you're comparing them to larger engines (often with more cylinders) or forced induction engines, then sure. In apples to apples comparisons though, Honda has historically been in the top 1% when it comes to volumetric efficiency. They've often gone head to head against cars equipped from the factory with FI. But now that Honda is hanging a snail off the head of their engines, the playing field has been evened, to the misfortune of the competition.

A line from a certain Bruce Willis movie comes to mind: "Now I have a machine gun Ho-Ho-Ho"

 

[Design]

Honda's directive has always been their green reputation above all else. As evident with the RDX, they could never get the efficiency they wanted through port injection. But advances in DI have made it easier to get the emissions and power they're after. I believe their biggest concern with DI Turbo has always been long term deposit buildup - something they seem to have addressed through ECU timing and combustion temps. But it remains to be seen.

Through all the interviews and testimonials, I believe American Honda is lobbying Japan for a more potent 2.0T in both the Si and CTR. They've been quoted repeatedly in saying they're focused on making all 10th Gen trims the class leaders. And knowing the current 2.0T gets 37 mpg hwy @ 306 HP, I think there's a much higher chance we'll see a "detuned" variant pushing 240+ while maintaining the ULEV standard.

That said, Japan still owns the engineering rights to the powerplants. And we all know their approach abroad is a bit more conservative. Patiently waiting...

 

[Phosky]

I think we could be mistaken to predict the Si HP based on the TypeR HP because it's possible, however improbable, that the Type R gets a bump. I'm thinking about the comparison to WRX vs STi - 268hp for wrx and what for the STi- 330 or something like that? (Someone please correct me on that number because I just don't know). Point being the STi isn't realistically 'that' much more powerful but has all the suspension, brake, and differential control to have the advantage.
I'll agree that 270hp si and 306hp TypeR might be too close -- a cat-delete and reflash and the Si would probably make 325 -- but if the TypeR bumps up, I could see 270.
All this said, I don't see them making this big of a leap. Not counting the 02Si mistake, the last bump from 99-00Si to the 06Si was 37 hp - about 23%. I would anticipate seeing the new Si as a 2.0T making a factory 245 (or some silly non-round number) with tonnes of easy power potential.

I believe the Si will have the potential that if you can't or won't pony up the extra cash for the TypeR, you'll be able to upgrade your Si to exceed the output.

There are a couple lines of reasoning that I'll attempt to explore which we can use to roughly estimate the output of the forthcoming Si. The first is to look at the historical chart of output increase of the last few iterations of the Si powerplant (at least in the context of the US market):

6th gen B16A2 160hp / 111lb-ft
7th gen K20A3 160hp / 132lb-ft
8th gen K20Z3 197hp / 139lb-ft
9th gen K24Z7 205hp / 170lb-ft

Each iteration saw a significant bump in either hp or torque. I think it's important to keep in mind that these gains were realized through naturally aspirated means and since the next generation of Si is expected to be turbocharged, we could very well see a much greater increase in both power and torque than we've seen in previous Si successors. If we attempt to extrapolate the output of the 10th gen Si based on historic data of the past four generations, we could reasonably arrive at a power figure of ~240hp / 175lb-ft (if hp is bumped), or ~210 / 200lb-ft (if torque is bumped). However, this is trajectory for naturally aspirated engines, and while I can understand why many people anticipate the output level of ~240hp, I think the new turbo Si will pack an engine that puts out far more than what we've come to expect in the past.

Another way we can gauge the output of the next Si is somewhat related to the previous method. But instead of looking at the historic power output figures of previous generations, we can analyze the power output of competitors in the same general class as the Si. These have traditionally included, though not limited to, the VW GTI, Mazdaspeed 3, Ford Focus ST, Nissan Sentra SE-R, Mitsu Lancer RalliArt, Subaru WRX and probably a few more I can't think of at the moment. Some of these models aren't produced anymore, but for the ones that are we can do a quick look up of what they're putting out:

VW GTI 2.0L 220hp (whp)
Ford Focus ST 2.0L 252hp
Mini Cooper S 2.0L 228hp
Subaru WRX 2.0L 268hp
Mitsu Lancer Evo 2.0L 291hp

So in order to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak, Honda is going to really have to turn up the wick. For these reasons I feel that 270hp is not completely unreasonable to expect out of the next Si.

 

[JYR]

At the end of the day, it's all pure speculation. We can guess and hope and think about this or that....and continue to wait.

Sponsored