Fell out of love with my FK8...

[BABY NSX]

I'm actually somewhat begging that question here. I've giving a reason why FF has an advantage over FR and AWD, but not MR. That primary reason is the fact that it suffers far less drivetrain loss than the other two, but as much as 5 or 10%, respectively.



All platforms have their pros and cons. Right now the fastest platforms that exist in motorsport are all mid-rear engined (with the motor behind the driver) powering the rear wheels with a hybrid system that powers the front. Even F1 cars are 2WD (MR setup still) and can only use KERS for straights strictly for added power.

That's not to say other platforms haven't been tried, FF race cars do exist. One of the more recent ones was the Nissan GT-R LM NISMO which was a front engined, front wheel drive car. They weren't able to get the hybrid drivetrain set up in time for race time so they did poorly, and the project was canned after that (probably due to the inability to get a hybrid setup in time which caused the poor results). I always wonder how well the car would have done if the hybrid drivetrain was actually able to be used in the car. Even without it, that car was an absolute beast of a car. Reverse staggered wheels, exhaust on the hood, crazy looking as well.

Keep in mind that nearly every powerful 2WD car is capable of mad spinning/wheel hop, whether it's the front wheels or the rear wheels. If you just base how good a car is on it's ability to just spin the wheels, then you exclude a lot of really good cars. The most major example would be the Viper (any generation). If you floor it in 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd gear you'll spin the wheels. And yes, if I had that car I'd be completely happy with the bad wheel spinning... And I'd also try to not do it purposefully. In other words, I'd learn how to control the power I'm given as that's actually rewarding (so long as I don't end up in a ditch driving a rolling coffin). Granted I may be biased as the Viper is my childhood dream car (though today I'd be afraid to own one)... Different strokes for different folks I guess. That said, other examples of 2WD cars that spin wheels would be Ferraris, Zs, Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs... I think even the S2000 and BRZ/FRS/86 (without the super sticky tires) were able to do that as well.

If your idea of a very powerful beast of a car is a car where you can just mash the throttle and it doesn't spin that means one of two things: 1) the car isn't powerful enough to make the wheels spin (that's not power or beastly IMO) or 2) the computer is stopping the car from spinning (if that's what you want, get Hondata TCS for the Type R and you'll never spin). Again, I'm going to reiterate here, AWD STI vs FF Type R. Both make about 300 HP at the crank. In just about every performance metric, stock for stock, the Type R is faster, if not equivalent, even when it spins the wheels. Same deal with the Golf R. And if you compare the Focus RS, which makes 16% more power, it's only faster from a dig, in most other aspects, it's beat out by the Type R.

Very well worded, as usual!

Just curious , what’s the 392 in your name? You have a Scat Pack or some sort?

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[tinyman392]

Too much focus on drivetrain loss, not enough on grip. An 800hp type r is going to be useless at putting the power down.

In low hp applications, the weight savings and reduced drivetrain loss advantage of front wheel drive gives it an edge. But the more hp you add, the more grip becomes the dominant factor which is why awd is so prevalent on todays high hp configurations.

Did you not read the rest of my post? Or are you just going to ignore the multitude of beast cars that will spin its tires, none of them FF either? Not everything was about powertrain loss, if you read the rest of my post that you're ignoring. Many cars spin 1st, 2nd, and some even 3rd gear from the factory. Most of the cars in the list would spin more gears if TCS wasn't there to stop them from doing it.

AWD is not so prevalent in today's high HP factory cars. Majority are still a standard RWD setup that has the same issue you're talking about, wheel spin, even with TCS kicking in to control it: Ferrari, Mustang, Vette, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Viper, Z, 718, 911, AMG GT (most AMG for that matter), BMW MX, Z4, Supra, RCF, LC500 etc... I could go on... Point is that there are lots of FR cars that spin tires stock (let alone at 800 HP. I guess they simply aren't good enough to cut it either... There are plenty more unlisted that really can't spin the tires though stock (BRZ/86, Miata, etc.)...

I'm going to be honest, I'm hard pressed to find too many AWD sports cars to list: WRX, Chiron, R8, Lamborghini, GTR, Audi RSX, TT, Continental GT, Yaris GRMN, Golf R, Focus RS... Yeah, honestly, all I could think off. It's not nearly as prevalent as you feel it is.

Granted, front wheel drive isn't super popular, mainly because it never was for sporty applications. A lot of drivers prefer to be able to oversteering using the throttle pedal which really isn't nearly as easily done in a FF or AWD car. Around a track, they kind of handle identically; it actually has little to do with it's ability to put down 800 HP. For the most part, around a track, you really won't be spinning an FF car that often either. Honestly, I can only list 2 halo cars (within their lineup) that are FF setups: Type R and Veloster N. The Corolla GR may end up on this list, or it'll end up on the AWD list.

Going back to the point at hand. Without any sort of downforce intervention, it is not possible to do more than 0.6g in an FF car, 0.6-0.7g in an FR car*, 0.8-0.9g in an MR car*, and 1g in an AWD car. There is an exception for an FR and MR car, and that's a wheelie where it'll be able to pull 1g.

I'm going to be honest, if I want to go fast in a straight line (or not), I'll run to an MR car any day of the week. It'll have the same lower powertrain loss and weight advantages of the FF car, but still be able to put most of its power down while being able to handle like a RWD car (because it is). On top of that, it has the weight advantage with everything in the rear and the weight shifting to the rear under acceleration. Until hybrid systems came around, this was the dominant setup for most prototype race cars and still is used for F1 and Indycar. The problem with this setup? It's very rare to find one that will seat 4 people.

If you want to just mash the pedal and go, then by all means, go get an AWD car, it's perfect for that. You don't have to think about it, you don't have to worry about weather, you just go. But outside the ability to torque vector without brakes and the ability to just hook, it has no other advantages over the others. An MR setup is far superior while being able to put down nearly as much acceleration as the AWD car, but doesn't suffer the powertrain loss and weight additions an AWD car does while still being able to match up to it fairly well. It would be the superior platform to really drive fast with.

But all this said, every platform has it's advantages and disadvantages. AWD isn't a perfect platform, not by a long shot. There are many other platforms that would outrank it in many different scenarios.

 

[tinyman392]

Very well worded, as usual!

Just curious , what’s the 392 in your name? You have a Scat Pack or some sort?

I never realized it matches the 392 for the Scat Pack That's actually a coincidence. Birth month and year. Kind of stupid honestly as it's identification information, but I've been using this username since I was like 10

 

[civicmanic]

Did you not read the rest of my post?

Yes. Nobody cares who wins the special fwd hanicap olympics at the nurburgring.
That's all the type r fanboys ever talk about "but but the ring, the ring...". And very few of you even track the car anyway.

You want to build the fastest car, fwd is the least desirable.

 

[Chee_hu]

It sounds to me like the "cool factor" has died down for ya moreso the fact that you're expectations were set high. That's usually the case for folks that get hyped over newer cars that are due to come out eventually. I know exactly how that is because I was once like that in my younger years.

The CTR surpassed my expectations since I've been a fan of the EK9 and have been wishing for the platform to come to the US. While some of the newer cars may sound more fun on paper, the FK8 still puts a smile on my face each and every single time I drive it. It was never meant to be a car that will blow your pants away from a stop on a straight line.

 

[civicmanic]

It sounds to me like the "cool factor" has died down for ya moreso the fact that you're expectations were set high. That's usually the case for folks that get hyped over newer cars that are due to come out eventually. I know exactly how that is because I was once like that in my younger years.

Yeah I think for many of us, the novelty of a car purchase like this tends to wear off within a couple years and a change is wanted. There are so many nice, fun cars out there and I want them all! Lol

 

[goodvibes]

Hype culture.?‍

 

[RepyT]

Hype culture.?‍

CTR tattoo culture have I

Wear it off, do or do not... there is no//// crying in baseball (beat it Tom!)

If no mistake have you made, yet losing you are… a different game you should play.Control, control, you must learn control!

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will.

A dark place we find ourselves, and a little more knowledge lights our way.

The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the light, the future is//// so bright, I gotta’’ wear shades! (flee Timbuk3)

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

When you look at the dark side, careful you must be. For the dark side looks back.

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

HeadlightS now on they are, better much we can see. dayum lights bright they are

 

[spyder57]

Yeah I think for many of us, the novelty of a car purchase like this tends to wear off within a couple years and a change is wanted. There are so many nice, fun cars out there and I want them all! Lol

Says the guy with the base Civic. Seems like you're a magazine racer yourself and don't have much experience with spirited driving.

 

[goodvibes]

CTR tattoo culture have I

Wear it off, do or do not... there is no//// crying in baseball (beat it Tom!)

If no mistake have you made, yet losing you are… a different game you should play.Control, control, you must learn control!

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will.

A dark place we find ourselves, and a little more knowledge lights our way.

The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the light, the future is//// so bright, I gotta’’ wear shades! (flee Timbuk3)

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

When you look at the dark side, careful you must be. For the dark side looks back.

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.

HeadlightS now on they are, better much we can see. dayum lights bright they are

I like this one ???

 

[RepyT]

Says the guy with the base Civic. Seems like you're a magazine racer yourself and don't have much experience with spirited driving.

I can’t blame civ’maniac for wanting it all.

Spyder,
Please try to go easy on m’boyee Speed Racer In the M’5 as I bought plenty of those magazines/comics and watched tons of anime when it was just called cartoons. Someone brought his ride to life, I want it. Already sportin’ Hot Wheels.

 

[CivilciviC]

I think the problem with the hype of the CTR is that everyone has to remember that different people have different tolerances, and the hype it gets is mostly by journalists who don't have the car for more than a few days at most. For many people, this could be the one car that does it all, but for others, it probably won't be.

The Golf R is a great more sedate CTR alternative - with an ECU tune those things are shockingly quick but the Golf R doesn't handle as good as the CTR. It's all about trade offs.

Also, most people who bought a CTR didn't/couldn't test drive it first, so the only thing they could do is rely on reviews/hype/word of mouth.

I will respectfully disagree about the Golf R.

It’s not a bad car, but, the manual version was a complete afterthought in that car. Stock, the clutch cannot handle anymore power than what it comes with. You have to upgrade it before doing anything. It will fail very quickly with even the most modest mods.

What’s worse, and what bothered me the most is the complete anemic feeling of the clutch and shifter. I don’t understand how people love German cars so much. There is ZERO feedback from the clutch or shifter.

If you want to talk automatics, yeah, it’s fast. But don’t compare it to the CTR then. All automatics are fast these days. That doesn’t mean they’re built for those who actually like to be engaged behind the wheel.

 

[CivilciviC]

HOWEVER,

The Golf R blows the civic out of the water in terms of amenities and fit/finish. I think its much better built, and the delta in sound system difference is probably even greater than the handling delta between these two cars. I wont even get started on the infotainment for the civic as you all probably already know.

Similar yet very different cars and I wish I could just merge these two cars together to get my "ideal" car lolol

Better built in what way? I test drove a Golf R with 20,000km on it and it had a check engine light already.

In terms of interior, I have to respectfully disagree also. I liked the MK6 Golf interior better in terms of design, than the current one. It just feels like an all black and drab place to be and the interior materials don’t seem to be any better. Sure it’s got leather seats, but to me that leather doesn’t feel very nice. The sound system is likely better than the CTRs, but I dunno, it’s not enough in my books to choose it over the CTR.

It’s been some time since I’ve sat in a Golf R, but there was a point in time where I was dead set on buying one. I hated the CTR exterior and I wanted AWD... but the driving experience left much to be desired and the CTR interior felt bigger to me (specifically the trunk). The door materials and dash materials didn’t seem all that different to me either.

It might be quieter overall with less NVH, but that’s one of the reasons I refuse to buy German cars. They take everything out of making a sporty car fun and make it a “luxury” experience. It just feels weird to want to feel nothing in a sporty car.

 

[CivilciviC]

There is a reason why honda can claim to be the fastest production fwd around the nurburgring, because there is little competition as few others care to do so. fwd is a big handicap to making a truly fast car, it's like the special olympics class of racing.

When they can make the claim to be the fastest awd around that track, I'll be impressed!

How is FWD a handicap on the track when the CTR is able to outrun cars 2-4 times its price point from not even that long ago? Granted, new automatic transmissions are fast AF and new super cars are crazy fast these days, but it’s surprising what the CTR hangs around with when it comes to track driving.

FWD only sucks from a complete stand still. I won’t deny it. Other than that there isn’t a huge handicap, especially when it comes to anything under 60k. The CTR hits way above its price range when it comes to anything besides straight line racing, regardless of FWD, RWD or AWD.

 

[CivilciviC]

Think of the fastest production cars out there. Think of what wheels are driven those cars. Think of why that is.

fwd is not a good platform to start with to make an absolute beast of a car. And for me, that'd me my goal at this point in my life. But again, different strokes for different folks. If you're happy with mad spinning/wheel hop every time you mat it, good on ya. You got the right car!

That is a bit of a flawed point of view. The fastest production cars are lightweight, more than anything. That is way more important than what wheels are driven. But then again, it depends on what kind of driving you’re doing.

A Mustang GT has way more power and is RWD. It beats the CTR in the 1/4 mile. But due to its heft, it’s not exactly running circles around the CTR when it comes to corners. What good is RWD when you’re pushing almost 600 pounds more through a corner? The mustang has 154-174hp more than the CTR. That’s literally 50%+ more power.

The problem is that no one is really comparing apples to apples here when it comes to the type of driving. Have you seen the cars the CTR hangs with when pushed to the limits in corners?

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