ATTENTION NEW OWNERS: STARTER INFORMATION-How to prevent blowing up your car.

gtman said:

As long as driving like a mad man doesn't involve constantly brake launching your car and you haven't disabled boost target target dampening you should be fine.

Also, consider running a full datalog including some WOT pulls and some "non-mad man" type driving. You can even upload the log here as a .zip file and someone will check it out.

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Did a datalog for a drive. Can someone check it out please

PowerPerLiter said:

This thread is for starter enthusiasts that are new to modifying/owning a turbocharged 10th generation Honda 1.5l turbo engine. Open discussion. Willing to edit.
Also this is only here by request of some newer members.

The intended goal of doing this is to provide a condensed combination of information in one place.

***excellent thread covering the engines: start here if needed

https://www.civicx.com/threads/2016...technical-presentation-specs-pics-videos.454/

*** Some links to various basic technical topics pertaining to engines/transmissions etc:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine2.htm - internal combustion engine and its parts
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/direct-injection-engine1.htm - direct injection and how it applies
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo1.htm - turbocharger basics
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm - CVT transmission basics
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm - manual transmission basics
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch.htm - how a clutch works
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/trends-innovations/car-computer.htm - ECU basics
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/compression-ratio-octane-ratings.htm - Fuel Octane basics (this article talks about how octane relates to compression ratio- keep in mind a turbo is a big compressor; our vehicles have continually changing "dynamic" compression ratio depending how much boost pressure is applied along with many other variables)

1) Change the oil in the car at MINIMUM when the maintenance reminder states to replace. Use whatever synthetic 0w20 you prefer with whatever quality oil filter you prefer.

a) When the car is cold: you do not have to let the car idle till warm up. In fact just idling will not warm up the car within a 30 minute window. General rule is let the rpm come down near idle or close to it after initial startup and start driving the car "gingerly". Completely avoid heavy throttle scenarios or 3k+ rpm as much as you safely can until the car has been operated at least 15 minutes. Keep in mind all the metal in the engine and transmission expands and contracts when hot and cold. Bearing tolerances, piston to cylinder wall tolerances, etc are much smaller when cold and expand to the intended design tolerances once up to temperature. Same rules apply internally to the CVT and manual transmission. JUST BECAUSE THE COOLANT TEMPERATURE GAUGE IS UP DOES NOT MEAN THE CAR IS SUFFICIENTLY WARM. Engine coolant heats significantly faster than the rest of the fluids as well as the metals. Manual guys: the clutch friction material has far less torque holding capacity when cold and could slip and glaze.

*** Fun fact: when you first start your car for about 15-20 seconds the engine is operating in a catalytic converter warm up mode. The cam angles are changed at initial startup to "light off" the catalytic converter. Honda's priority number one is emissions. You can actually hear the car change tone when the cam angles "release" out of the cat warm up time. As the car is idling down once this function times out the car will sound slightly different; some of you may have noticed this already and this is whats happening. All this to say DO NOT EVER, EVEN IF THE CAR IS WARM, START THE CAR AND IMMEDIATELY HAUL ASS or use any sort of rev limiter/2step/antilag.

2) When buying any parts for the car- if a sensor is connected to whatever component you are changing, chances are high that it will affect the tune of the vehicle to some degree. Whether or not the car will trigger a check engine light is irrelevant. Things could be very unhappy and the computer is compensating just enough to keep the check engine light off. ONLY purchase upgraded components from reputable sources that have a track record of functioning well. Site sponsor websites are a good place to shop. Always ask questions if your uncertain.

a) Intakes: some "could" cause problems even on a factory tuned vehicle IF they are designed poorly enough; by under-reporting airflow to the ecu. PRL MISHIMOTO 27WON are all examples of PROVEN RELIABLE brands to purchase. There is a new short ram intake from Ktuned that is NOT going to work without tuning the AFM tables. Any available "race maf" is also not designed to work without being adjusted for. The issue is airflow needs to be as perfectly measured as possible for the rest of the ecu to perform its duties correctly. It would take a very large variance to cause immediate damage but the possibility is there. The check engine light would eventually come on but that only happens once the ecu preset trim adjustment limit is reached (somewhere in the 37 +/- trim range) Some affect fuel trims more dramatically than others. Do your research. Ask questions. If you can only afford amazon products- just stop.

***Recommended reading on fuel trim operation; how this applies and is affected by intakes-

https://www.27won.com/blog/yeah-but-what-are-your-fuel-trims?rq=trims

*** Interesting thread talking about stock intake: which aside from being completely silent is exceptional.

https://www.civicx.com/threads/save-the-money-stick-with-factory-intake.20881/#post-351977

b) Downpipes: (catted or not) could create scenarios of too much low end torque if not managed and adjusted for. Even the stock calibration assumes this backpressure is there and operates the turbocharger wastegate as it normally would with the factory catalytic converter in place. These factory wastegates are electronically controlled stepper motors that may not re-act quickly enough to completely control boost spikes once an aftermarket downpipe is in place. Exhaust modifications down stream do not effect back pressure but very minimally, if any. Aftermarket downpipes on the other hand relieve enough backpressure after the turbo that boost will come in much quicker in the rev range.

c) "Canned tunes" are tunes or flashes which are provided or sold that are intentionally designed to operate reasonably well on most vehicles. These are often portrayed as completely safe by members on here. Which for the 99% out there, they are. Dont be the 1%. If you monitor the car you minimize your chances of falling in that 1 %. The starter basemaps are/were tested extensively for months and months with various vehicles before they were released by either Ktuner or Hondata. Trust me they wouldn't put out a dangerous "starter" map to use. Just keep this in mind; the only "completely safe" tune is the stock programming on a stock vehicle and even then things break!

d) Custom tunes are recommended and available either remotely via email with people such as D-Rob at IMW (as well as others) OR locally with familiar performance shops in your area. This is highly suggested when modified, always. There are also many of us on this board that will be willing to look over data to help decipher as well as potentially make suggestions. This is an area to tread carefully. There are no warranties in this arena.

https://gensportunited.com/tuning-canned-vs-custom/

e) Blow off valves or anything that "vents to atmosphere"- The short end of this is as follows; air enters the intake and is accounted for by the mass air flow sensor....from this point on the car is assuming NONE of the air has left this system and enters the cylinders. ANYTHING you do that would cause air to leave this system is detrimental to vehicle operation...quite simply dont install these. The factory blow off valve is actually whats called a diverter valve and works phenomenally well even on high boost applications.

3) When "tooning" or flashing the vehicle. Familiarize yourself with normal running parameters and what data to watch and monitor; as well as how to record and review a data-log. Read, read, read about common terms that apply to turbocharged vehicles. Such as, Boost pressure, Knock, Afr, Ignition Timing, Short and Long term fuel trims- in the very least.

**** How to record and retrieve data-logs****

Hondata Flashpro- https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html?on_board_datalogging.htm
Ktuner- http://www.ktuner.com/KTunerHelp/on_board_logging.htm

****Comprehensive list of of what the sensor data wording means - use the top right arrows on this linked page to get descriptions 1 by 1 of the parameters you will record while data-logging and what they mean-

https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html
http://www.ktuner.com/KTunerHelp/item_abbreviations.htm

**** Help files available info on adjusting AFM meter when using aftermarket intakes****

Hondata Flashpro version- https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html + https://www.hondata.com/help/flashpro/index.html

Ktuner version- http://www.ktuner.com/KTunerHelp/maf_settings.htm (this is less detailed as far as the help file goes but functions in a similar way to hondata)

4) Do not just assume that everything is fine. Check or have someone verify if the car is agreeing with your modifications.

5) If this seems daunting or you just think you will never understand the basic fundamentals of turbocharged internal combustion. Then do NOT modify the car.

6) These engines are capable of making "rod bending torque" below 3k rpms when modified and allowed to do so. This can of course bend or break rods in extreme cases but the most common issue is creating clutch slip. General rule of thumb is try to "roll into" the throttle slowly below 3k rpms as much as possible. Higher numbered gears are more apt to create issues with this. Generally 1st and 2nd gear are ok to go wide open with at rpms above 1500. The clutch slipping has been reported with bone stock cars as well, but not all.

Video made by Hondata which explains some of this: good info that applies to all of us.



7) Fuel quality and octane: this is a touchy subject for some. 87 octane can be used in any of these cars as a MINIMUM REQUIREMENT. It is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED to use premium fuel in any small displacement turbocharged vehicle. Stock cars benefit by running full timing advance when better fuel is used. If you are flashed I absolutely would not run less than premium (although they say you can because "knock control will take care of it") I say I would rather not rely on the factory knock control strategy to keep my car alive.

TOP TIER FUEL IS ALMOST JUST AS IMPORTANT AS OCTANE. Gas stations and fuel suppliers have certain criteria to meet to be considered "top tier". Detergent levels are higher with gas designated "top tier". This maintains a cleaner fuel system with less chance of deposits to cause issues with your fuel injectors as well as internal carbon buildup.

https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/

****the TSP Stage 1 tune calls out 91-93 octane as a requirement on their product page, and no longer just a recommendation for that tune.****

Some good reading about octane that is still available:

https://www.civicx.com/threads/stock-civic-x-tuning-results-87-oct-and-high-octane.7385/

To be continued...

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Thanks for the info. From what I gather if all I have is a Mishimoto SRI and direct fit cat back magnaflow the preloaded tunes from either K Tuner or Hondata would be fine and not have to worry about a custom tune?

UnoLobo said:

Thanks for the info. From what I gather if all I have is a Mishimoto SRI and direct fit cat back magnaflow the preloaded tunes from either K Tuner or Hondata would be fine and not have to worry about a custom tune?

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Depends how Mishimoto did designing the MAF. I actually haven’t seen much info on this. How are your fuel trims?

Also the OP now advocates remaining stock. I’m not endorsing that position, but seems a necessary addendum to this thread. https://www.civicx.com/threads/my-friend-blew-his-motor-on-tsp-stage-2.44785/page-8#post-736390

I would say the smart way to do it is 1 bolt-on at a time. Drive on it a bit. Add another. Rinse and repeat. Tune somewhere near the end.

WOPSiWOT said:

Depends how Mishimoto did designing the MAF. I actually haven’t seen much info on this. How are your fuel trims?

Also the OP now advocates remaining stock. I’m not endorsing that position, but seems a necessary addendum to this thread. https://www.civicx.com/threads/my-friend-blew-his-motor-on-tsp-stage-2.44785/page-8#post-736390

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Correct.

I have a Mishimoto short ram sitting on the shelf. It is a wonderful piece and I can not find anything bad in the design. I like it!

Do I think it would cause an issue with my 2020? Probably not if it was the only thing I changed. Am I going to install it? No.

To clarify on my position. My personal choice is to not modify these cars as I now hold the position they are excellent as stock.

I simply find zero reason to chance anything with modifying the car anymore.

I had fun with the 2018 but that ship has sailed.

PowerPerLiter said:

Correct.

I have a Mishimoto short ram sitting on the shelf. It is a wonderful piece and I can not find anything bad in the design. I like it!

Do I think it would cause an issue with my 2020? Probably not if it was the only thing I changed. Am I going to install it? No.

To clarify on my position. My personal choice is to not modify these cars as I now hold the position they are excellent as stock.

I simply find zero reason to chance anything with modifying the car anymore.

I had fun with the 2018 but that ship has sailed.

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Your logic above about not modding, the original thread, I agree with all of it. That's why I've also kept the car stock aside from a shift knob, and HID's.

Sure I want to tune and get the fun noises, etc. I'm not knocking what anyone does to their car. Do you, live ya best life......But seeing whats happened to a few examples, it's just not worth my time, money, and potential aggravation for me. Plus mine is a lease, and I don't even know yet if i'll keep it or trade up for another 2+ years.

Regarding downpipes? Are you saying a blanket tune like tsp stage one would not be sufficient to compensate for the back pressure readings?

PowerPerLiter said:

a) When the car is cold: you do not have to let the car idle till warm up. In fact just idling will not warm up the car within a 30 minute window. General rule is let the rpm come down near idle or close to it after initial startup and start driving the car "gingerly". Completely avoid heavy throttle scenarios or 3k+ rpm as much as you safely can until the car has been operated at least 15 minutes. Keep in mind all the metal in the engine and transmission expands and contracts when hot and cold. Bearing tolerances, piston to cylinder wall tolerances, etc are much smaller when cold and expand to the intended design tolerances once up to temperature. Same rules apply internally to the CVT and manual transmission. JUST BECAUSE THE COOLANT TEMPERATURE GAUGE IS UP DOES NOT MEAN THE CAR IS SUFFICIENTLY WARM. Engine coolant heats significantly faster than the rest of the fluids as well as the metals. Manual guys: the clutch friction material has far less torque holding capacity when cold and could slip and glaze.

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I'm just going to pick this out because it's the most important thing for everyone, regardless of what car they're driving. Engines for at least the last 30-years are designed to drive under light throttle conditions after proper oil circulation and when the air-fuel mixture begins to lean out. A good rule of thumb is, if your car is port fuel injected and has a catalytic converter, your car is designed to start and drive after about 30-seconds of idling. In very cold temperatures, you may idle for up to 60-seconds to ensure proper oil circulation, but the RPM of the engine, regardless of whether or not you have a tachometer, will tell you when it's time. The engine speed will somewhat quickly idle down in rpms as the fuel mixture gets leaner. Once this occurs, you're ready to go.

What is 1.5L Civic-specific is the idle down to 1,200 rpm. You may notice quite a high idle rpm of 2,000 or more rpm in cold weather. Once the idle comes down to 1,200 rpm, you should begin driving.

RPM -- Idle ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Driving --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2000~ -- Oil circulation / Expected oil dilution / Preheating catalytic converter --------------------- Increased engine wear / Increased oil dilution / Increased Emissions
1200 -- Oil circulated / Increased oil dilution / Slowly heating catalytic converter --------------- Expected engine wear / Expected oil dilution / Decreasing Emissions
~1200 -- Oil life decreasing / Increased Engine Wear / Increased emissions ----------------------- Decreased engine wear / Decreased oil dilution / Decreased Emissions

I hope that shitty chart helps understand why you want to start driving as soon as it's safe for the engine. There is a midpoint where you want to increase the temperature of the engine while covering mileage and the benefits begin to outweigh other factors. If you drive a manual, you should also drive in a lower gear (not exceeding safe engine speeds of around 3000 rpm) to increase the speed of engine temperature.

nekrawulf said:

Regarding downpipes? Are you saying a blanket tune like tsp stage one would not be sufficient to compensate for the back pressure readings?

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It should be fine but definitely would need data logged to verify everything is fine. What I will say is that the map was designed for a stock car..... I would suggest someone look over the data and make necessary adjustments (ie: DRob in this instance because that file is mostly locked by him/tsp because they created it)

PowerPerLiter said:

It should be fine but definitely would need data logged to verify everything is fine. What I will say is that the map was designed for a stock car..... I would suggest someone look over the data and make necessary adjustments (ie: DRob in this instance because that file is mostly locked by him/tsp because they created it)

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Thanks for replying. I was debating stopping powermods at FMIC, intake, shifter, and ktuner (tsp) for my daily si. This post pretty much validated what my thoughts were on balancing drivability with reliability and why I should stop there.

Thanks again.

nekrawulf said:

Thanks for replying. I was debating stopping powermods at FMIC, intake, shifter, and ktuner (tsp) for my daily si. This post pretty much validated what my thoughts were on balancing drivability with reliability and why I should stop there.

Thanks again.

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I want to do the same mods but keep looking at 27won turbo. I keep feeling like the turbo upgrade is pushing it... One way or the other, I will end up getting a custom tune. TSP stage 1 is great but I think it should still be temporary in the long run. 100% staying away from flex fuel.

joshhjackson2112 said:

I want to do the same mods but keep looking at 27won turbo. I keep feeling like the turbo upgrade is pushing it... One way or the other, I will end up getting a custom tune. TSP stage 1 is great but I think it should still be temporary in the long run. 100% staying away from flex fuel.

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I think the the turbo upgrade would be too. It seems like torque in lower gears is bad for rods torque in higher gears is bad for clutch. Tsp stage one map 2 seems to offer me what I want with the mods listed above. And I think is a good balance.

Bumping for visibility.

Thank you for this, lots of little things to pick up just by a quick read. I should lay off sub 3k RPM on third lol, but I love feeling the turbo kick from 2k-3k.

Just to clarify all I have is an intake at the moment...... before I do any more bolt ons for power I should get a Ktuner first right!? Noob over here ?