Why didn't Honda tune the stock configuration to give us more power?

[123sillyboy123]

I just act like I cant notice anyone lol

Unless i see another Si and Type R then I'll try to get their attention and wave at em lool.

I dont like street racing

I got your wave once..

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[Jt_theory]

Quick question. If the car has been routinely run on 91 but can actually handle 93, how long does it take to recognize the new higher octane? I assume there is no advantage to going to a higher octane than 93 with the stock tune.

Dave,

I have to say the only advantage to running higher than 93+ petrol is knock resistance on the stock tune. And the better the resistance, the safer. Unless you retune the ECU aggressively for the higher octane.

 

[lou430]

Not an engineer but my guess it throws balance off. In order to increase speed you need to increase stopping capabilities first. Type R is a "perfect" your driving instead of suck at driving and mash the pedal.

My neighbor has mustang 5.0 GT and going fast is all he cares about. He doest care if the car can't turn the corner or brake before hitting the wall. Lives his life quarter mile at a time.

This is the same reason drivers prefer the Porsche GT3 over the turbo GT2. GT2 is too difficult to gauge

 

[kefi]

Nothing will happen if you put 87 and got WOT. It'll just prevent knock by pulling timing like you said.

It will pull timing after knock has already occurred, and the knock retard resets every time you let off the throttle completely. Every time you WOT you will likely be knocking with 87, albeit not through the entire pull.

 

[kefi]

Quick question. If the car has been routinely run on 91 but can actually handle 93, how long does it take to recognize the new higher octane? I assume there is no advantage to going to a higher octane than 93 with the stock tune.

There isn't any recognition of octane. The car doesn't adjust to things like that over time. It only pulls timing after it detects knock, and only for as long as the pedal is down.

There is nothing like an octane sensor in our car, or any car that I'm aware of.

The factory tune is tuned for 91 and running 93 brings no benefit other than increased knock protection, which there shouldn't be any of in the first place.

 

[fiend busa]

You don’t get it. It doesn’t prevent knock it pulls timing after it detects knock. No one in the world who knows how to tube would tune a car to let knock retard control timing.
If you set it ten degrees in adavance it will go right to that first knock then reared timing 3 degrees then knock again. By the time the ecu retards timing you already have anywhere from 4 to 20 knocks detected even with only one degree of too much advance before it can retard timing. Like I said when it’s too late!! And after a second it will try to advance timing again knock again the retard timing. It doesn’t remove timing till after knock. Knock control Prevents knock and it’s not set high enough for fk8 to prevent knock!! Every single time you hit the Wot it will knock first then retard. How you think that isn’t dangerous is beyond me. I’m only a diagnostic tech for 21 years and been building cars since 2001. what could I know. I guess my certifications mean nothing.
whoever thinks there isnt a drastic difference between 87 and 91 is beyond me considering FBO 93 can make 380whp but FBO 91 can only make 355whp and it’s only a two point difference while 87 is 4 Points lower. Hondata only adds 2.25 degrees of timing on 93 and 91 octane changes almost nothing anywhere timing wise.

I can guarantee nothing will happen to the car if you run 87 octane for months on the stock tune.

 

[fiend busa]

There isn't any recognition of octane. The car doesn't adjust to things like that over time. It only pulls timing after it detects knock, and only for as long as the pedal is down.

There is nothing like an octane sensor in our car, or any car that I'm aware of.

The factory tune is tuned for 91 and running 93 brings no benefit other than increased knock protection, which there shouldn't be any of in the first place.

Theres a video of a honda engineer saying you'll get 320hp (Euro rating) running 93 vs 306 running 91 on stock tune

 

[fiend busa]

I got your wave once..

The yellow type r right??

 

[kefi]

Theres a video of a honda engineer saying you'll get 320hp (Euro rating) running 93 vs 306 running 91 on stock tune

That's because they have a slightly different base tune for the EUDM Type R for their different gas. I don't remember the specifics on what's different over there, maybe 94 is the norm or something. Mexico also has a slightly different tune.

 

[tinyman392]

There isn't any recognition of octane. The car doesn't adjust to things like that over time. It only pulls timing after it detects knock, and only for as long as the pedal is down.

There is nothing like an octane sensor in our car, or any car that I'm aware of.

The factory tune is tuned for 91 and running 93 brings no benefit other than increased knock protection, which there shouldn't be any of in the first place.

Honda has been quoted saying that the car will steadily increase power all the way up to 99 octane. Specifically they were ask about the differences between the US motors and the EU motors and the answer was that the motors and tuning is identical, the difference is that the octane ratings for fuel were different and thus the higher power rating in EU. Even further they quoted that it’ll adjust and increase power all the way up to 99 octane.

 

[kefi]

Honda has been quoted saying that the car will steadily increase power all the way up to 99 octane. Specifically they were ask about the differences between the US motors and the EU motors and the answer was that the motors and tuning is identical, the difference is that the octane ratings for fuel were different and thus the higher power rating in EU. Even further they quoted that it’ll adjust and increase power all the way up to 99 octane.

I'd love to be proven wrong here, but I've never seen that quote and from what I know, doing something like that isn't really possible. There isn't an octane sensor, the only way they could do something the way you describe is by tuning for 99 and just pulling timing with the knock sensors, which would be absolutely disastrous.

It doesn't slowly increase timing on it's own until it sees knock, either. It strictly follows the ignition maps set in the tune and only retards, never advances.

There's a lot this ECU figures out on it's own, but ignition advance is not one of them.

 

[aldksgo]

Even further they quoted that it’ll adjust and increase power all the way up to 99 octane.

Do you have a timestamp for this in the hondapro Jason video? Don't recall this part.

 

[tinyman392]

Do you have a timestamp for this in the hondapro Jason video? Don't recall this part.

https://www.civicx.com/forum/thread...plained-316-in-eu-306-in-usa.9948/post-497785

Edit: this guy says 14:40. I would need to watch the video again to find out.

Edit 2: HPJ video:

Edit 3: 15:50-ish is where it is.

 

[kefi]

I can guarantee nothing will happen to the car if you run 87 octane for months on the stock tune.

If you're so sure of yourself, flash to stock, fill up with 87, and take some datalogs of you ripping it on the highway. I guarantee every time you lay into the throttle hard, it will be knocking. To be clear: if you let off the throttle at 6000 RPM and lay back into it and cause knock, you've now knocked at that high RPM with zero knock retard protecting you.

This is really, really basic level shit about the ECU that isn't up for debate. The Bosch knock control strategy is well documented and has been the same for years in other cars, and one quick look at any datalog will prove it. It reduces timing once knock has already occurred and been detected, and it forgets it ever happened as soon as you let off the throttle, regardless of what your RPM is.

If you want to tell me that knock isn't bad for the engine, that's a different argument altogether.

 

[aldksgo]

https://www.civicx.com/forum/thread...plained-316-in-eu-306-in-usa.9948/post-497785

Edit: this guy says 14:40. I would need to watch the video again to find out.

Edit 2: HPJ video:

15:40 timestamp is better. So I watched the video again and at 15:46 he literally points at the EU car and says this engine is tuned for 98 RON. He then says if higher fuel is used it can reach it, but leaves out the tuned for 98 RON part. Is it implied? Probably have to ask him again.

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