Best balanced car ever?

[Gunther]

My son's and I don't track our cars and we don't drive like maniacs either. So for routine trips to the mall or the occasional spirited Sunday drive down a local twisty road in the woods, I can tell you with authority that our '19 Civic Touring handles and steers within a hair of our '05 330ci. We are just as suprised to hear that as you are, trust me.

For years we thought the E46 and its pixie dust would be hard to replace and that no matter what modern car we'd buy we'd be disappointed. Not true. I can highly recommend a Civic Sedan as a nice E46 replacement. Does it have that pop from 0-60? No way. But steering and handling and body roll? I'm telling you, very little difference. We are very pleased.

Still with you - it's a modern design vs. one that originated in the mid-90s. No question the technology's gotten better, the manufacturing techniques, and especially the tire technology. But all else being equal, I would kill to have a Civic with a front-engine layout, 6 MT, and RWD for <$30K. It would simply be the more "naturally" performance-oriented platform... a point that seems lost on most people itt.

Then there's the Type R, but I strongly suspect that the Type R's dynamics are due in large part to its electronic aids. Like it's baffling to me why people are reporting rear pads wearing out faster than fronts... how much correction is being done by the computer? Same with its magical abilities to get rid of torque steer - I get the suspension design, but I suspect there might be more to it. Same with the adaptive dampers on both it and the Si - probably a massive contributor to good handling - far more than people realize. Let's just hope Boeing didn't oversee the development. I still want one, but I really wish we could get the Si with the 2.0T.

I will add one thing. I'm not sure how sharp you kept your BMW, god knows there's a lot to do... but over the past couple of years, I've replaced everything on mine responsible for how the car "feels" - primarily all of the bushings (especially subframe etc.) which is probably one of the most overlooked things in any car and a major contributor to it feeling "old." It's back to feeling like a scalpel... I was shocked at the difference vs. the cost. Now the big bitch with bushings is doing the work - pressing them them in & out is the worst thing ever and probably why it's so commonly overlooked. Just saying it's similar to when people get new tires & they're like "wow these are great." It's hard to say how much of that is due to the tires being great vs. simply comparing an old, run-down set of tires against a fresh pair.

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[gtman]

Great comparison chart, hicompb18c1!

 

[Gunther]

A lot of interesting definitions of standard itt.

 

[gtman]

Then there's the Type R, but I strongly suspect that the Type R's dynamics are due in large part to its electronic aids. Like it's baffling to me why people are reporting rear pads wearing out faster than fronts... how much correction is being done by the computer? Same with its magical abilities to get rid of torque steer - I get the suspension design, but I suspect there might be more to it. Same with the adaptive dampers on both it and the Si - probably a massive contributor to good handling - far more than people realize. Let's just hope Boeing didn't oversee the development. I still want one, but I really wish we could get the Si with the 2.0T.

But, ultimately, does it really matter if some of it is done behind the scenes with technological magic? The driver is still driving and experiencing the amazing dynamics of the car.

If you're saying somehow, that's "cheating", maybe you should get one of those stone age age Flintstone-mobiles.

 

[Gunther]

But, does it really matter if some of it is done behind the scenes with tech magic? The driver is still driving and experiencing the amazing dynamics of the car.

It depends - you can cut that question many different ways. Different people want different things out of it. For what I'm personally looking for in a daily driver, idgaf. But I'll tell you the best & most fun car I've ever owned was my NB Miata and that was just hilarious, all the time, with barely enough electronics to run the radio.

It did matter to those 300+ souls flying on the 737-MAX tho.

 

[gtman]

So, I take it you're shopping for a car. What's on your short list beyond the Civic?

 

[BriteBlue]

The Type R's dynamics are different because the steering parts & geometry are completely different than all of the other Civics.
https://global.honda/innovation/technology/automobile/Dual-axis-strut-suspension-picturebook.html

 

[Gunther]

Let's take RWD out of the equation - simple, affordable, practical, daily drivable RWD cars in a 6 MT simply aren't offered anymore.

WRX
- Don't want/need the complexity of an H4 + AWD + Turbo... aside from getting it an automatic, it doesn't get more complicated than that. I keep cars long-term, and that's a lot of shit to break/start leaking
- Rev hang is extremely annoying
- Interior is cheap
- The car is ugly (which I can deal with)
- But for the money you are getting AWD & quite a lot of performance

STI
- Same concerns as above
- But the engine is old as hell - it's really disgraceful they've let this car go. If it wasn't for this, it would probably be my choice. The theater of it trumps the negatives.
- Scared of the ring land problems
- Would've said it looks ridiculous, until the Type R came out
- But it is fast and exciting
- Best-sounding 4-cyl. engine ever

GTI
- Looks extremely boring
- Fed up with German BS past 60K miles (main problem)
- But it's the right amount of power
- Right amount of fun
- Right amount of practicality

Civic Si
- Design is OK
- Reliable
- Good, fun dynamics
- Wish it had the 2.0T (and tuning a turbocharged engine scares me)

Civic Type R
- Looks ridiculous. I can deal with ugly, but I'm not sure I can deal with ridiculous... waiting to see if they release a smaller wing, that'll tone it down a lot
- The price hikes & ADMs are infuriating - the car is good, but when we're approaching $40K the game starts changing. It's still a Civic - even though it's a great platform... $40K...
- Will be the envy of every 12 year-old girl in a 500-mile radius (not a plus)
- It's very "unique" - not sure how that'll affect ownership/DIY-ability in 10 years
- Very exciting engine
- Excellent dynamics
- Honda long-term reliability (hopefully)

Hyundai Veloster N
- Don't know what to think of this thing... haven't thought about it much until recently, but it's a bit small and a bit cheap inside. But people are saying it's very, very good to drive.

 

[BriteBlue]

A V6 Camaro with 6-speed manual is about $27,500 the last time I looked. About $10K cheaper than a Type R. Get the 1LE package for $4,500 and it's still $5K cheaper than a CTR. Maybe the interior looks cheap & the visibility is poor, but it has RWD, no turbo, & looks better than a CTR.

 

[Gunther]

Doesn't fit the practicality bill w/ 2 doors.

 

[gtman]

Get an Si sedan. Tune it with KTuner and the TSP Stage 1, get really good tires and call it a day.

 

[Gunther]

I'm worried about tunes on a turbocharged engine... Can it handle it reliably for 200K or more miles? From what I've read, doing this to a Subaru drastically increases the chances of detonation.

 

[hicompb18c1]

I'm worried about tunes on a turbocharged engine... Can it handle it reliably for 200K or more miles? From what I've read, doing this to a Subaru drastically increases the chances of detonation.

It's definitely an issue on Subarus, even though a handful of people will say it's fine, but I've simply seen way too many blown Subaru motors (both FA20 and EJ25) that have been tuned to accept that.

I'm doing more research on these new Honda motors (L15B7) before committing to tune my Si. From what I've read it doesn't seem like a conservative tune is too harmful, but asking 200k on any turbo motor with added boost seems like a lot.

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