Manual trans first time driver impressions (hatchback sport) (pics)

[geeeek]

Just curious, let’s say I wanted to have 0 wear on my synchros (or drive a manual without synchros, for instance) I would have to rev match while in neutral during a double clutch? @phornea

I remember reading that synchros does the work that double clutching used to do but I’m not sure exactly how it works

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[BarracksSi]

Just curious, let’s say I wanted to have 0 wear on my synchros (or drive a manual without synchros, for instance) I would have to rev match while in neutral during a double clutch? @phornea

I remember reading that synchros does the work that double clutching used to do but I’m not sure exactly how it works

Roughly, yeah, that's the effect.

Double clutching lets you spin up the transmission's internals to match the input and output smoother.

I double clutched most of the time when downshifting-to-pass. Cruising in 5th, then I want 2nd or 3rd (depending on speed), I used these steps, usually in less than two seconds:
- Clutch in
- Shift from 5th to neutral
- Clutch out
- Throttle up revs
- Clutch in
- Shift from neutral to 3rd
- Throttle

The transmission's input side has to spin a lot faster for, say, 5000 rpm in 2nd than it did for 2000 rpm in 5th. Matching the input shaft to the engine by revving in neutral helps take work off the synchros.

** Restating the earlier remarks about shifting without the clutch:
Yup, it can be done, and the only way to really do it right is to learn to match the engine RPMs with the road speed and the chosen gear. If you know that 30mph in 4th is 1500rpm, you can shift into it if you match all three numbers.

A tip, though: Shifting OUT of gear without a clutch requires you to partially lift off the throttle. If there is a load on the transmission, either accelerating or decelerating (or just climbing a hill), the gears are pushing together and won't slip out easily. Lighten up on the throttle just enough to feel like you're coasting, and you should be able to push the stick out of gear with a finger. If it doesn't move easily, DON'T FORCE IT, and adjust your right foot a bit more.

I remember a Road & Track writer telling about being taught to drive manual years ago on a car without synchros. He was allowed to use the clutch to get going, and then not touch the clutch while driving. Ended up learning how to drive extra-smooth by matching engine RPMs to road speed-and-gear ratio.

 

[phornea]

Just curious, let’s say I wanted to have 0 wear on my synchros (or drive a manual without synchros, for instance) I would have to rev match while in neutral during a double clutch? @phornea

I remember reading that synchros does the work that double clutching used to do but I’m not sure exactly how it works

Roughly, yeah, that's the effect.

Double clutching lets you spin up the transmission's internals to match the input and output smoother.

I double clutched most of the time when downshifting-to-pass. Cruising in 5th, then I want 2nd or 3rd (depending on speed), I used these steps, usually in less than two seconds:
- Clutch in
- Shift from 5th to neutral
- Clutch out
- Throttle up revs
- Clutch in
- Shift from neutral to 3rd
- Throttle

The transmission's input side has to spin a lot faster for, say, 5000 rpm in 2nd than it did for 2000 rpm in 5th. Matching the input shaft to the engine by revving in neutral helps take work off the synchros.

** Restating the earlier remarks about shifting without the clutch:
Yup, it can be done, and the only way to really do it right is to learn to match the engine RPMs with the road speed and the chosen gear. If you know that 30mph in 4th is 1500rpm, you can shift into it if you match all three numbers.

A tip, though: Shifting OUT of gear without a clutch requires you to partially lift off the throttle. If there is a load on the transmission, either accelerating or decelerating (or just climbing a hill), the gears are pushing together and won't slip out easily. Lighten up on the throttle just enough to feel like you're coasting, and you should be able to push the stick out of gear with a finger. If it doesn't move easily, DON'T FORCE IT, and adjust your right foot a bit more.

I remember a Road & Track writer telling about being taught to drive manual years ago on a car without synchros. He was allowed to use the clutch to get going, and then not touch the clutch while driving. Ended up learning how to drive extra-smooth by matching engine RPMs to road speed-and-gear ratio.

Barracks explanation is spot on, both regarding how to double clutch and the only time not using the clutch will work (takes too long especially going into higher gears and good luck getting the RPM just right).

And I do exactly the same. 95% of the time I drive manual normally without double clutching, letting the synchros do what they were designed to do. Otherwise your just 2x the amount your using the clutch (engaging the master cylinder that operates the clutch) and transferring the normal wear of the synchros over to the master cylinder. The only time I double clutch is when down shifting, especially if downshifting 2-3 gears (i.e. 6-4, 6-3, 5-3, 5-2, etc.) As Barracks said, the more gears you skip the greater the RPM difference between input and output and the more the synchros work. Double clutching allows you to quickly match the input shaft's speed, using the engine's rpm, with the output.
Additionally, this is also why I personally only do it on down shifts; you can quickly blip the throttle to match the speed, but on an up shift you have to wait for the engine's RPM to naturally slow down and so you don't have as much control and also takes longer (especially with the Civic's rev hang).

Since Barracks already explained how to correctly double clutch, I won't repeat any of that. But here is a quick diagram I whipped up of an oversimplified version of the transmission to help you understand.

Basically when you're going from gear to gear, the synchros (one on each gear, only 1 shown on diagram) have to match the RPM of orange shaft with the blue shaft. This is the click/thump you feel as you engage a gear (when you skip gears you feel a bigger thump and more resistance). The conical part on ORANGE shaft inserts and rubs into the cup of the BLUE shaft and through friction, just like the clutch, match the speeds. The teeth of the gears can now interlock with one another as well. When people don't release the clutch from the engine properly and the rotation differences are too great, the synchros don't have enough power to do their work and this is when you hear the gear teeth grinding together. This will also happen if you don't use the clutch when shifting. The engine (RED) is still attached to the input shaft (ORANGE) and the synchros may be able to cope with the forces and match the speeds of both the engine and input shaft to the output, but this is where it adds significant wear if the RPM's are way off and even teeth grinding if they can't cope. Double clutching is suppose to minimize the work the synchros have to do by disengaging the clutch both when you release gears and when you engage gears to compensate for any RPM differences that is impossible for us humans to get absolutely perfect. Shifting without clutching has the exact opposite effect.
Of course, unless your David Harper and you can match you'r RPMs flawlessly like a machine! Then I don't know what I'm talking.

 

[Gruber]

Barracks explanation is spot on, both regarding how to double clutch and the only time not using the clutch will work (takes too long especially going into higher gears and good luck getting the RPM just right).

And I do exactly the same. 95% of the time I drive manual normally without double clutching, letting the synchros do what they were designed to do. Otherwise your just 2x the amount your using the clutch (engaging the master cylinder that operates the clutch) and transferring the normal wear of the synchros over to the master cylinder. The only time I double clutch is when down shifting, especially if downshifting 2-3 gears (i.e. 6-4, 6-3, 5-3, 5-2, etc.) As Barracks said, the more gears you skip the greater the RPM difference between input and output and the more the synchros work. Double clutching allows you to quickly match the input shaft's speed, using the engine's rpm, with the output.
Additionally, this is also why I personally only do it on down shifts; you can quickly blip the throttle to match the speed, but on an up shift you have to wait for the engine's RPM to naturally slow down and so you don't have as much control and also takes longer (especially with the Civic's rev hang).

Since Barracks already explained how to correctly double clutch, I won't repeat any of that. But here is a quick diagram I whipped up of an oversimplified version of the transmission to help you understand.

Basically when you're going from gear to gear, the synchros (one on each gear, only 1 shown on diagram) have to match the RPM of orange shaft with the blue shaft. This is the click/thump you feel as you engage a gear (when you skip gears you feel a bigger thump and more resistance). The conical part on ORANGE shaft inserts and rubs into the cup of the BLUE shaft and through friction, just like the clutch, match the speeds. The teeth of the gears can now interlock with one another as well. When people don't release the clutch from the engine properly and the rotation differences are too great, the synchros don't have enough power to do their work and this is when you hear the gear teeth grinding together. This will also happen if you don't use the clutch when shifting. The engine (RED) is still attached to the input shaft (ORANGE) and the synchros may be able to cope with the forces and match the speeds of both the engine and input shaft to the output, but this is where it adds significant wear if the RPM's are way off and even teeth grinding if they can't cope. Double clutching is suppose to minimize the work the synchros have to do by disengaging the clutch both when you release gears and when you engage gears to compensate for any RPM differences that is impossible for us humans to get absolutely perfect. Shifting without clutching has the exact opposite effect.
Of course, unless your David Harper and you can match you'r RPMs flawlessly like a machine! Then I don't know what I'm talking.

You wrote a lot, but I don't see who are you arguing with. There are no 3 parts that you need to synchronize if you don't touch the clutch, there are only two parts - the part that turns with the engine and the part that turns with the wheels. You can make them turn at the same rate. A shift without the clutch is not quick. No one said it's easy, and that it works as well with any gearbox. But it's just matching two rotational speeds and it can be done without any grinding sounds.

Now skipping gears, if done right, doesn't even concern the transmission. Not a bit of stress or additional wear.

 

[franzfume]

What? That is the absolute worst thing that you can do to a Honda Transmission.

No if the rev is ok

 

[VarmintCong]

nonsense. nothing wrong with skipping a gear if you do it right. just rev-match correctly. this is what manual transmissions are designed for.

I have noticed in my Civic, moreso than any previous cars, it seems as if it doesn't want to skip shifts. Like in a BMW, you pull it out of sixth, you can go into 4th or 2nd easily, it doesn't seem to care. In my Civic, it seems to want to go back into 6th, you have to wait a bit and then go for 4th.

I'm not sure what's different about this manual - never had a manual car that rolls while in gear either so something's different.

 

[David Harper]

I have occasionally shifted without the clutch, just for amusement. Just a matter of sensing when the rev's synchronize with the gear you're shifting into. And taking it real easy on the stick, kind of "coaxing" it into the next gear.

 

[87elco]

Good for you save the manuals

 

[garoto]

Here’s what I read from Honda and I’ve heard it from mechanics and service managers. In fact, when they ask you to go for a test drive, they will be watching you drive and if they see you skipping gears, they might not cover you. Do as you please, it’s your car.

 

[VarmintCong]

Here’s what I read from Honda and I’ve heard it from mechanics and service managers. In fact, when they ask you to go for a test drive, they will be watching you drive and if they see you skipping gears, they might not cover you. Do as you please, it’s your car.

if you get the rpms wrong, it doesn't matter if you're going 2nd to 3rd or 2nd to 5th. It's just easier to get it wrong skipping 3 gears.

I'm not sure why you'd be going 2nd to 5th, unless you're not paying attention.

 

[phornea]

Here’s what I read from Honda and I’ve heard it from mechanics and service managers. In fact, when they ask you to go for a test drive, they will be watching you drive and if they see you skipping gears, they might not cover you. Do as you please, it’s your car.

This is exactly what I've been saying and explaining. Skipping gears properly can be done, but is difficult at best compared to shifting normally and therefore will increase wear on the synchros since they aren't designed to handle that type of load for the life of the car. For this same reason the manufacturer doesn't want to cover it since they didn't design the transmission to handle an increased load that shouldn't exist in the first place.

if you get the rpms wrong, it doesn't matter if you're going 2nd to 3rd or 2nd to 5th. It's just easier to get it wrong skipping 3 gears.

I'm not sure why you'd be going 2nd to 5th, unless you're not paying attention.

Yup, you're right. But further to that, even when shifting from one gear to the next, without double clutching (which 99% of ppl don't), there's still going to be a difference in RPM. It's just that the synchros were specifically designed to handle this for the life of the car. That's the job of the synchros after all. However, skipping gears, if not done properly, will now push the synchros to work past their designed limits.
It's just like increasing the car's originally designed ECU mapping to increase HP beyond what the engine was designed to run at. The manufacturer won't stand behind that since they didn't test it for longevity and durability.

Regarding why anyone would shift from 2 - 5, I can see it being done for good reason. For example if you needed to accelerate hard off the line or overtake someone from a lower speed. You would run up the RPM's hard in 2nd gear then once you've reached the speed you were going for or are done overtaking you would just drop it straight into 5th. Similarly if you're in a higher gear and need almost full power to overtake, you would drop it straight down 2-3 gears.

 

[Gruber]

Here’s what I read from Honda and I’ve heard it from mechanics and service managers. In fact, when they ask you to go for a test drive, they will be watching you drive and if they see you skipping gears, they might not cover you. Do as you please, it’s your car.

What do you mean by "they might not cover you"?

 

[BarracksSi]

Regarding why anyone would shift from 2 - 5, I can see it being done for good reason. For example if you needed to accelerate hard off the line or overtake someone from a lower speed. You would run up the RPM's hard in 2nd gear then once you've reached the speed you were going for or are done overtaking you would just drop it straight into 5th.

That's what I've done. 2nd in my EP3 was good for 58 mph, while cruising in 5th was viable starting at least at 30-35 mph. Wring it out in 2nd, get up to speed (like on a freeway ramp), then shift it into 5th while slotting into traffic that's probably going 50-55 mph.

The caveat is, I take extra time in neutral between 2nd and 5th to let the input and output of the transmission equalize. Not only does the engine need to coast from 6500 rpm to 2500, but so does the transmission. Once it's all good, then the shift into 5th is nice and smooth.

A bit of practice with no-clutch shifting will drive this method home real quick. Get any part of it wrong and it'll grind; get it right, though, and it's fine.

 

[phornea]

The caveat is, I take extra time in neutral between 2nd and 5th to let the input and output of the transmission equalize. Not only does the engine need to coast from 6500 rpm to 2500, but so does the transmission. Once it's all good, then the shift into 5th is nice and smooth.

Yup, this is why I mentioned in an earlier post that I typically only double clutch on down shifts rather than up shifts. With down shifts you can quickly blip the throttle and so only adds a split second to the shift, but when up-shifting, even if double clutching, you still need to wait for the engine's RPM to naturally slow down on their own since you can't hit the breaks on the engine like you can the throttle.
Also, on top of that, it's much easier for the synchros to slow down RPM than it is to bring them up. Another words, the most wear and most benefit to double clutching and matching RPM is on down shifts. I sometimes do it even on single gear down shifts.

 

[BarracksSi]

Yup, this is why I mentioned in an earlier post that I typically only double clutch on down shifts rather than up shifts. With down shifts you can quickly blip the throttle and so only adds a split second to the shift, but when up-shifting, even if double clutching, you still need to wait for the engine's RPM to naturally slow down on their own since you can't hit the breaks on the engine like you can the throttle.
Also, on top of that, it's much easier for the synchros to slow down RPM than it is to bring them up. Another words, the most wear and most benefit to double clutching and matching RPM is on down shifts. I sometimes do it even on single gear down shifts.

An aside --

This is why I think all the hand-wringing about the perceived sluggishness of a CVT is unwarranted. If you want to shift gears right on a manual, it takes a little extra time; and if you're going to compare one transmission type to another, you have to start the clock from when you begin a control input. Downshifting a manual, the first thing you do is lift off the gas and push in the clutch; "downshifting" a CVT, the first thing is to mash the gas. From there, a manual needs between three and five more steps before engaging the next gear, which all take time to execute -- while the CVT does all that trickery on its own.

Of course there are situations where the rigid engine-to-wheels connection of a manual (or DCT) is better, but these are more rare than people are willing to admit, and are not so likely to encounter on the street. I mean, really, how often are you going fast enough around a corner to make mid-course corrections with the throttle?

Doing all the clutch-in-and-out work on a manual is fun. I get that. Did it for nearly thirty years. But I'm not going to pretend that it's always better in daily use.

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