Michelin Sport 4S in Cold Weather

Florence_NC said:

Salt? I don't think you guys get it. We have not a had a weather event here requiring salt in 2 or 3 years. I understand it is tough for some of you way north of me, but my January is like your April. To put this in perspective, I looked up the weather here last winter, this is what I found:

January: The coldest month of the year for us, started on New Years Day with a high of 71. It did not drop below 38 at night until Jan 10. We did have about a 3 week stretch of highs mostly in the 40s and lows in the 20s, some low 20s. But after Feb 2, we only had 6 more nights the entire remainder of the year below freezing.

The coldest day of the year: Dec 9, with a high of 34. That is correct, the coldest day of the year was still above freezing. And the low that night was 32, so it still did not drop below freezing on the night of the coldest day.

Second coldest day: Jan 21, with a high of 37. The low that day was 19, which is also the coldest night of the year. That is also the only time all winter that the temp dropped below 20. Read that again: One night under 20 the entire year.

Days with highs below 40: The two days mentioned above. We only had 2 days all year where the temp failed to reach 40 during the day.

So now maybe you will understand when I say that winter tires are a real stretch for me. There are a small handful where they may come into play, but the number of those days can shift radically based on exactly what is a reasonably-functioning temp for a given Summer tire.

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I'd get another set of wheels with all season tires for the winter months. Basically, if you're below 50-60 degrees F, the all season will grip better and get more traction than the summer compounds will. If you're between 50-80-ish the difference should be somewhat negligible. If you're above 80, then summer compound will provide superior traction. So why new wheels? Well I did say above that the only all-season tire that exist in OEM sizes is the Nitto NeoGen which I can't really recommend for it's non-dry performance (so rain, light snow, etc.). Getting an 18" wheel with something like the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S3+ would be ideal for you during the winter.

Florence_NC said:

Salt? I don't think you guys get it. We have not a had a weather event here requiring salt in 2 or 3 years. I understand it is tough for some of you way north of me, but my January is like your April. To put this in perspective, I looked up the weather here last winter, this is what I found:

January: The coldest month of the year for us, started on New Years Day with a high of 71. It did not drop below 38 at night until Jan 10. We did have about a 3 week stretch of highs mostly in the 40s and lows in the 20s, some low 20s. But after Feb 2, we only had 6 more nights the entire remainder of the year below freezing.

The coldest day of the year: Dec 9, with a high of 34. That is correct, the coldest day of the year was still above freezing. And the low that night was 32, so it still did not drop below freezing on the night of the coldest day.

Second coldest day: Jan 21, with a high of 37. The low that day was 19, which is also the coldest night of the year. That is also the only time all winter that the temp dropped below 20. Read that again: One night under 20 the entire year.

Days with highs below 40: The two days mentioned above. We only had 2 days all year where the temp failed to reach 40 during the day.

So now maybe you will understand when I say that winter tires are a real stretch for me. There are a small handful where they may come into play, but the number of those days can shift radically based on exactly what is a reasonably-functioning temp for a given Summer tire.

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Wow, sounds like a dream. Yeah sounds like you could get away just running summer tires. And the days it dips stay at home in pto or take another car.

How do the A/S 3+ hold up over time? My oem tires are quickly nearing 10k and I'll be replacing them soon, with 18" wheels. Their warranty say they're good for 30k. I might even run them year-round since the closest good track is VIR which I don't even know how easy it is to get on. Unfortunately I don't see me at the track very often, so I wouldn't really need a summer tire. Those actually stack up pretty well against summer tires. I could get away with those if I managed to get to a track. It'll kill the life of course

Could you guys comment on this video using PS4S in cold winter?

mehrdad said:

Could you guys comment on this video using PS4S in cold winter?

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He's on dry pavement, I expect him to get traction in that. There are two major issues with using a summer tire in winter, the first is with weather (anything that isn't dry), the tire just won't be able to do its job. The second is tire failure where the tire will begin cracking under the stress of getting heated too quickly. This results in a totaled tire that isn't safe to drive, even in the summer.

tinyman392 said:

He's on dry pavement, I expect him to get traction in that. There are two major issues with using a summer tire in winter, the first is with weather (anything that isn't dry), the tire just won't be able to do its job. The second is tire failure where the tire will begin cracking under the stress of getting heated too quickly. This results in a totaled tire that isn't safe to drive, even in the summer.

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Thanks a lot for the comment.

Florence_NC said:

So is there anybody on here that has driven P4S's in mild winter conditions? The OEM Contis are a different tire, and the two tires may react very differently below certain temps. Just because one was manageable doesn't meant he other one will be as well. I know what all the gloom-and-doom lawyer-speak on tire websites says, I am not looking for that info. I want real-world experience.

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I have run both Michelin Pilot Super Sports (precursor to the PS4S) and Pilot Sport 4S year round on my Audi RS4 in Atlanta. It's not an issue. Like you, we very, very rarely have any temps below 20 (necessitating the car warm up for a whole day) and I garage my cars.

If there ever is a snow event, I don't drive my car anyway, so it's a non-issue. Never had traction issues at any point. You can easily run them year round.

tinyman392 said:

He's on dry pavement, I expect him to get traction in that.

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Not if you listen to everybody here. According to them, all is good at 40 or above. But at 39.999 degrees the tires turn into round slabs of black granite dipped in dirty cooking oil. And if you even so much as sit in the drivers seat with the keys in your pocket, you and the car will, in this order:

1) Spontaneously combust and be engulfed in flames.
2) Crash into the bus for Our Lady of Grace School for the Misfortune.
3) Kill all 144 blind and crippled children on the school bus, as well as all 7 passengers in your car.

mehrdad said:

Could you guys comment on this video using PS4S in cold winter?

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Despite what others say, this is about what I would expect. The day he is driving is basically equivalent to the coldest day of the year where I live, and I have driven my Summer OEM tires in those conditions. They were OK, not quite as good as they would be in warmer condition. But not unsafe.

There are a lot of other factors as well to what he reported as results. He did not mention whether the car had been sitting inside a garage or outside all night, that would make a significant difference in tire temps at the beginning of the drive. Once you start driving, especially in daylight, the road temps are much higher than ambient, which puts heat in the tires. Just driving also puts heat in them, so even though you may have a 25 degree ambient, the actual tire temp, which is what matters, can be 20-30 degrees higher than that.

Now also as mentioned, the real test/issue comes when there is any precipitation on the road. When it is raining, there is much less sunlight to heat the road, and the constant contact with water is cooling the tires, removing most of the generated heat. The YT poster needs to do a video in those conditions to really tell the whole story,

Florence_NC said:

Despite what others say, this is about what I would expect. The day he is driving is basically equivalent to the coldest day of the year where I live, and I have driven my Summer OEM tires in those conditions. They were OK, not quite as good as they would be in warmer condition. But not unsafe.

There are a lot of other factors as well to what he reported as results. He did not mention whether the car had been sitting inside a garage or outside all night, that would make a significant difference in tire temps at the begging of the drive. Once you start driving, especially in daylight, the road temps are much higher than ambient, which puts heat in the tires. Just driving also puts heat in them, so even though you may have a 25 degree ambient, the actual tire temp, which is what matters, can be 20-30 degrees higher than that.

Now also as mentioned, the real test/issue comes when there is any precipitation on the road. When it is raining, there is much less sunlight to heat the road, and the constant contact with water is cooling the tires, removing most of the generated heat. The YT poster needs to do a video in those conditions to really tell the whole story,

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Thank you so much for the comment, yesterday got the PS4. Base on your guides I expect not to face a serious limitations based on the local weather conditions in Istanbul.

I am intrigued by the denial in many of these discussions. The winter issue has much less to do with performance on the road than with the physical integrity of the tire itself. Road handling, sliding, traction, etc., are irrelevant. It’s not about tread pattern. The tire compound loses its structural properties below 40⁰ F. The summer tire physically breaks down and will eventually fail. There’s no option. If you’re going to drive in winter conditions you need a winter compound tire. I’m using UHP winter Pirellis and they’re Ok, although they definitely feel different than the OEM summer tires.

Florence_NC said:

So you have had PS4s and driven them below 40? What was your experience?

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Toronto here, our winter is quite cold.
i have ps4s on both of my car, dont use ps4s with temperature below 45F.
The tire compound will stiffen up, and performance rapidly decline as it is not meant to be on road with low temperature.
It has little to no traction on any snow or ice. think about a hockey puck sliding on ice.
Our winter came early this season, temperature is said to be 5F these few days, road is all white since last week. I had the ps4s on the ctr and it was skiing. Quickly switched to Michelin Aplin PA4 day after.

if you city doesnt have significant amount of snow and icy road, and not too many days that will go below 45F, I think ps4s will be fine. otherwise, just go with A/S 3+

123sillyboy123 said:

Toronto here, our winter is quite cold.
i have ps4s on both of my car, dont use ps4s with temperature below 45F.
The tire compound will stiffen up, and performance rapidly decline as it is not meant to be on road with low temperature.
It has little to no traction on any snow or ice. think about a hockey puck sliding on ice.
Our winter came early this season, temperature is said to be 5F these few days, road is all white since last week. I had the ps4s on the ctr and it was skiing. Quickly switched to Michelin Aplin PA4 day after.

if you city doesnt have significant amount of snow and icy road, and not too many days that will go below 45F, I think ps4s will be fine. otherwise, just go with A/S 3+

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I put PS4s on my car about a month ago, and I am not observing this behavior.

We have had a relatively cold (for us) November, with three nights below freezing already. The coldest night so far was 26, and I left work really late when the roads had lost heat and my tires were dead cold. I drove very aggressively in my parking complex to try and see if I could get any crazy loss of traction. I couldn't. There was a small but definite drop-off with ambient temp tires, but nothing extreme. After 4-5 miles of driving on the road to get some heat in them, they were not significantly different than a 50 degree day. Maybe a few degrees colder will be enough to trip the tires, but 26 is not cold enough to be of any concern.

I have also driven it in light rain during the day at about 37 degrees. Again nothing. I will likely get a just-above-freezing rainy day, which is when I expect to have issues, if I have any at all. If it is snow/ice, I will drive a different vehicle. Overall, I am amazed at how good these "Summer" tires perform in conditions that everyone kept saying would never work.

And 5 degrees? I just looked up the weather history, and found that it has only been 5 or colder 7 times here IN MY LIFETIME!! (Born 1966). And it hasn't been 5 or colder AT ALL since 1986.

An update on this thread:

I now have about 12k miles on the PS4S, with the entire winter so far in that time frame. In short, my experience just proves that all "summer" tires are not the same. These are so much better in colder temps than the OEM Contis, it is like comparing a summer tire to an A/S.

We have not had much cold here to really get a good read. But I did go to the PRI show in Indianapolis in early December. There was a bad weather front moving through, and when I left Charlotte about 9pm, I went up I-77, which takes you across some high altitude mountains in VA and goes through WV. I drove through the night, saw temps as low as 21F, and had no issues with the PS4S. They were not a grippy as a warmer day, but nothing remotely close to what others have described here. Now note that it was dry, and the tires were never dead cold since I left from much warmer conditions. They were a bit twitchy feeling in the very high altitudes, but up there the wind is strong, the pavement has coarser aggregate to mitigate black ice, and the roads had just been sprayed for the upcoming weather. So I attribute the conditions other than temp to be the cause of the slight unstable feeling up there. Maybe if I had started in 21F with dead cold tires I might have a different report. But no issues in these circumstances.

On my way back, I went the other way, which is 1-40 taking me through the mountains between TN and NC. This was all during the day, but by then the weather was moving in. I drove across the mountain pass on I-40 in rain and snow flurries, with the temp regularly between 33-35F. I even saw as low as 31F a few times. I never slowed down the whole trip, the PS4s handled this no problem. Now again, the tires were already warm from driving before I got to the the mountains, and it was daytime. But I got caught one time with the OEM Contis in similar conditions, and I was borderline crashing the whole drive.

So in short, my experience shows that the 245/30/R20 PS4S is an acceptable tire for all but the very rarest of winter conditions in my part of the country. Maybe a different size will have a different compound and not react the same. Or maybe just a handful of degrees colder would be a different situation. And one should still be extra careful in cold conditions, and probably not drive at all in any icy or snowy conditions. But having a set of A/S for me just makes no sense, there simply won't be enough situations around here for them to be justified.

How many miles have folks been getting out of the 4s? I went with the 3a/s on my other set of wheels...maybe I shouldn't have even bothered....wishing for a softer tire on the twisty country roads.