WTH Honda!?

takemorepills

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Last night my wife and I test drove:

2018 Civic Si
2018 Sport Hatch (base)
2018 Accord 2.0T 6MT

And my impression is, "WTH Honda!??!?" Why the heck did you guys put the 2.0T into the Accord, but not the Si?!?!? The difference in performance between the Accord 2.0T and Si is mind-boggling.

Please note, I have been of driving age, and a Honda enthusiast since the early 90s. NEVER did the Si get punked by an Accord. The Si (Civic or Prelude) was always dynamically superior to the Accord. Now, the tables have turned. The 1.5T Si accelerates in a ho-hum manner, the 2.0T Accord is actually quite damn quick. The difference is huge. I can only imagine the Type R must be a real blast.

The problem for Honda is that enthusiasts show up to their dealers in say, a GTI or Focus, to see the Si. Now, I don't know about Focus ST, but since I own a GTI, I know it well. I am spoiled. There is no way in hell I'd give up my GTI for a Si. BUT, I most certainly could give up the GTI for the 2.0T Accord. What kind of strange world do we live in that the Accord 2.0T is so much better than the Si?

TL;DR Honda should've put the 2.0T in the Si.

Please don't start defending the 1.5T, it is an indefensible engine for the Si, join me in demanding that Honda put a proper engine into the Si! 2.0T Lives Matter!





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jayee

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Si has never been about power it's about sporty handling. If you buy an Si for its 0-60, 1/8, or 1/4 times your doing it wrong. The Si will annihilate the Accord on a track even with a smaller engine.
At the end of the day, yes it would have been nice if the Si got the detuned Type-R engine. But it didn't and the 1.5T tunes into a beast so... I'm content.

Let me put it this way... When has the stock Civic Si ever made more horsepower and/or torque than the top engine Accord?
 

sometimestwice

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Corporate Honda did discuss this, the result was keeping the Si in it's cost bracket it always has been in. It isn't the fastest car but it is a fun car to drive, and it has several things the Accord doesn't offer, like the limited slip. So it boils down to $23,000 for the Si, basically $30,000 for the upgrade Accord, or selling a kidney and getting the Type R
 

charleswrivers

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I'm not sure when a previous gen stock K-powered Si Civic has ever been able to beat a stock J-powered Accord over the last few generations in pure acceleration, so I'm not sure why this should come as a surprise. The engine optioned Accord beats the Si Civic in a straight line. Again. The only difference is a Type R is in the states and happens to use roughly the same engine.

...Ugh, I'm taking a few whacks at that horse myself... nevermind...
 

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The V6 Accord was quicker accelerating to 60 than the Si for years, this gen is nothing new. It's late so I don't really have the energy to go into detail but people who think 0-60 times determine how much of a driver's car something is don't know jack about cars(suspension, braking, ride height, body roll, handling, LSD, gearbox, I could go on for days). The Accord is a family Sedan. The Si is a driver's car. There are many metrics aside from 0-60 times that impact drivability and the Accord falls flat on every single one aside from acceleration compared to the Si.
 

syncro87

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I don't recall the Civic Si ever being about brute power. The Accord V6 has existed for years, being a far more powerful car than a Civic Si during that time.

Doesn't seem like a whole lot has changed, really, to me.

Agree with Jayee. ^

Also, price difference is large. Compare what a 2.0T Accord sells for compared to a Civic Si. Pretty substantial difference.
 

Gruber

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And my impression is, "WTH Honda!??!?" Why the heck did you guys put the 2.0T into the Accord, but not the Si?!?!? The difference in performance between the Accord 2.0T and Si is mind-boggling.
WTH takemorepills?!, :) why do you hate Honda so much?
:rolleyes1:
Are you advising Honda to make a Civic Si with the 250+ hp 270+ ftlb engine (which will tune much higher) that would sell for ~$25k so that no one has to spend more money and buy the CTR? If you are ready to pay for it much more than that, why don't you just get interested in the CTR? This is the sporty Civic on the offer with a big engine.

Seems like bad advice. You want Honda not only to make less money, but additionally to increase their average fleet gas mileage and be punished by the government.
 

VarmintCong

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Last night my wife and I test drove:

2018 Civic Si = $24,000
2018 Sport Hatch (base) = $21,000
2018 Accord 2.0T 6MT = $30,000
Not seeing the problem here. And the last V6 Accord was sub 6 second 0-60. I'm guessing that beat the Si as well.

Kudos to honda for keeping the Si cheap, not everyone wants to pay $30k to have some fun. I'm enjoying my $21k Sport, but woulda bought the Si if it had a hatch.
 

nuowner

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I've been driving for 40 years. Never driven a Honda of any ilk ever until shopping for and buying the 17 Si... so I have no basis for comparison with previous Hondas. But 'numbers' aside, I'm not sure how anyone can be underwhelmed by the power/acceleration of this engine.
 

callmehandsum

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charleswrivers

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The only relevance of the thread is that you can get a 2.0T in a Civic trim... the type R... and earlier Si models had a different engine than the other trims.

So far as a Civic vs Accord comparison... the engine optioned Accord has been faster in a straight line than an Si since as long as I can remember. So is a engine optioned Altima. Or a Camry. All are low to mid 14 sec 1/4 mile cars since shortly after the turn of the century with a ~6 sec 0-60... and they generally don't come with summer tires with is a somewhat common option for Sis which could do better still.

So far as the competition... competitors will be starting to move well above the ~200 hp mark here soon... leaving Honda 205 hp number well behind. The GTI is touting 250 hp in 2 years. The Mazda 3 is going to come out with it's HCCI engine this year with a supercharger that will likely match, if not exceed the L15B7 in both power and economy (and complexity). I don't know why someone would want one... but the Elantra GT has a lot of good buzz... and if they give it a good bump, it's higher numbers may pull people to the way of cheap (and cheaply made) power.

I seriously doubt Honda will give up the economy side of the L engine by going back to a K engine... the R is a pretty limited run that doesn't drastically hurt fleet economy averages. These days... 30 MPG or less highway on a small/mid-sized car is abysmal. A type R gets... what... 28? As I recall, my K24Z7 for 30 for it's rating.

A freer breathing turbo and 500 RPM higher redline could likely match the future GTIs 250 HP number. Hondas getting good data from all of us across the Civic, CRV and Accords running various versions of the turbo L15s, from 2016 to present. I'm sure they're looking at their options on the horizon. They've already gone with DI... ultra high gearing with using CVTs (non Si of course)... use of small displacement engines running relatively high compression and lean burns. There's likely more reliable power to be had, that Honda is getting years to test in the intervening years between the 10th gens release and whenever we'll see gen 11. I'm not sure how much more economy they'll get w/o things like HCCI... or the variable compression that Nissans set to release in their 2.5s. They look to be axing the VQ finally... which isn't much more advanced than the 24V version of the VG that was born in the late-80s. I'm not sure what the VR brings to the table.

I may be more by myself on this one... but I *don't* see a big difference in a mid-cycle refresh, no matter what anyone else thinks. 8th gen came out to wide acclaim but I don't recall much changing to their Si powertrain wise, through 2006-2011 and they weren't getting much love at the end of their run. The 9th gen fell flat on release... but most of the changes on the emergent refresh were suspension based. The K24Z7 got a tiny bit more power from an exhaust change... but otherwise... no changes for it's 4 year run. I wouldn't be surprised if the 10th gen soldiers on, virtually unchanged with regard to it's powertrain for 2-3 more years (giving it a 5-6 year run for the generation as a whole)... and it's last year or two of production, becoming critically dismissed from a power stand point at it's end-of-life... to then resurge into relevance when gen 11 provides an answer to the competition that supersede gen 10.
 

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