Anybody's tires freeze?

[ctrmofo]

again, reminder that it's "winter tires" not snow tires or ice tires.

winter = temps 32f or below, snow, or ice. you do NOT have to have all conditions to consider using winter tires. even if you never get snow or ice, it's the cold temp that you lose traction with summer compound.

as i've said before, was running on re71r until temps dropped to 50f here in columbus. completely dry sunny day...traction was so bad i was spinning 1-2-3-4 gears and plowing/understeering. had been waiting for my titan 18x9.5+45et wheels to arrive to mount the 245/40/18 WINTER tires. i stopped driving the car on re71r until finally go the winter setup mounted.

since first part of december as our temps have been in 40's, 30's and recently below 0 - with or without snow or ice on dry roads - gobs of traction and even flashed back my summer tune (maps 55-72 of 72 maps, since i tune 18 maps each of the 4 versions...map per gear per drive mode) on the hondata flashpro. on dry sub 32f roads, i barely lose just a little traction in 1st and barely any in 2nd gear.

so forget the notion that you need ice and snow....it's the temp first and foremost. regardless of where i live...if i want traction forward, laterally/cornering, and braking below 32f - i'll never drive summer compound, period. snow and ice just adds to the fun and of course must have.

now if you live where you've never seen extended temps lower than 40-50f then of course summer or a/s are perfectly fine. the guys who live where it's 40f or lower and especially 32f and lower for 2-3 months at least a year - you can debate all you want. even on dry roads, you simply can't outperform a compound made to stay soft from 32f down well below zero. easy test:

- on a 32f day...sunny blue skies as far as you can see and totally dry roads.
- line up 2 exact same ctrs, one with summer or a/s and one with winter tires.
- see which car gets to 60mph first.
- see which car brakes from 60mph the shortest.
- see which car understeers more or less in a parking lot.

anyone who lives in columbus want to experience first hand, happy to give you a ride in various road conditions to show you ;-)

Sponsored

 

[Alim_N]

start out in 2nd gear instead of 1st gear. how you should drive in deep snow/slippery condition.

Yes, def a good tip too

 

[remc86007]

start out in 2nd gear instead of 1st gear. how you should drive in deep snow/slippery condition.

Isn’t that only good advice for a torque converted automatic? How does starting in 2nd with a manual do anything other than burn your clutch and raise the wheelspeed that must be reached for the clutch to be fully engaged?

 

[ctrmofo]

Isn’t that only good advice for a torque converted automatic? How does starting in 2nd with a manual do anything other than burn your clutch and raise the wheelspeed that must be reached for the clutch to be fully engaged?

No, it’s for manual only. On snow and ice, 1st gear is too short and spin all day. 2nd gear gives you more traction in such condition. There’s no clutch burning when gear is taller. There’s less slip or wheel spin than in 1st. It’s how we do it for decades with manual tranny in snow and ice.

 

[tinyman392]

Isn’t that only good advice for a torque converted automatic? How does starting in 2nd with a manual do anything other than burn your clutch and raise the wheelspeed that must be reached for the clutch to be fully engaged?

Lower gears mean less torque to the wheels if I'm not mistaken. Yes, it uses the clutch more as you need to get to 2nd gear idling speed (7-8MPH in the Type R, though you may be able to go as low as 6MPH without stalling), but it has a lower chance of spinning the wheels. You could theoretically use 2nd gear to get to idling speed in 1st gear (about 4MPH in the Type R) and then shift into 1st, but you'll have a larger chance of spinning the wheels if you do so.

Edit: I'm not aware of too many automatic transmissions that will allow you to start in 2nd gear.

 

[ctrmofo]

Likewise, when it’s snow and ice, turn off VSA if you’re stuck or going up a hill. Rely only on LSD to get you out of being stuck or going up hill. That is assuming you have winter tires too. VSA will do the opposite in those situations and cut power when you need power to the wheel not spinning which is what the LSD does. VSA helps stability in straight line or cornering in regular conditions.

If you don’t believe, give it a try with VSA on and off sometime if you have an incline with snow or ice and see.

 

[remc86007]

Lower gears mean less torque to the wheels if I'm not mistaken. Yes, it uses the clutch more as you need to get to 2nd gear idling speed (7-8MPH in the Type R, though you may be able to go as low as 6MPH without stalling), but it has a lower chance of spinning the wheels. You could theoretically use 2nd gear to get to idling speed in 1st gear (about 4MPH in the Type R) and then shift into 1st, but you'll have a larger chance of spinning the wheels if you do so.

Edit: I'm not aware of too many automatic transmissions that will allow you to start in 2nd gear.

I guess I'm not understanding how using your clutch more to get into 2nd and a higher wheel speed is better for accelerating in low friction situations. With torque converted automatics, starting in 2nd gear reduces the torque multiplication effect of the torque converter and allows for more gradual application of torque. It seems to me that starting a manual in 2nd increases the likelihood of slipping the tires because the wheels are trying to achieve a higher idle speed when the clutch is released. How is the same gradual release of the clutch better with a taller gear?

Also, all Honda automatic transmissions I've driven (excluding CVTs) can start in 2nd. I did it in my 6th gen accord in low traction situations occasionally.

 

[tinyman392]

I guess I'm not understanding how using your clutch more to get into 2nd and a higher wheel speed is better for accelerating in low friction situations. With torque converted automatics, starting in 2nd gear reduces the torque multiplication effect of the torque converter and allows for more gradual application of torque. It seems to me that starting a manual in 2nd increases the likelihood of slipping the tires because the wheels are trying to achieve a higher idle speed when the clutch is released. How is the same gradual release of the clutch better with a taller gear?

Also, all Honda automatic transmissions I've driven (excluding CVTs) can start in 2nd. I did it in my 6th gen accord in low traction situations occasionally.

Taller gear = less torque, that's all there is to it. 1st gear provides more torque than 2nd gear which provides more torque than 3rd gear etc. The end result is that you have to slip the clutch more (nearly twice as long), but in 2nd gear, you're putting down considerably less torque than 1st gear but need to slip the clutch longer to get to 7-8MPH (for 2nd gear) instead of 4 (for 1st gear).

I might be mistaken when talking about the torque converted automatic, but doesn't power go through the torque converter before it reaches the physical gearing of the transmission? If so, the multiplication effect really can't be affected by gear selection. The gearing mechanics can alter the torque output like it does a manual though (because 1st gear has more torque than 2nd which provides more torque than 3rd etc.).

I haven't driven any Honda automatics that allow you to select gear. But most automatics I've driven (92 Caravan, 98 Grand Cherokee, 06 Sentra) have the D1, D2, ..., DN gear system that allows the computer to choose gears up to N (D2 = computer chooses gears but won't pass 2nd). In my previous 15 Camry, I could enter D2 or S2 manually which would limit the vehicle to 2nd gear, but it would still need to go through 1st gear in order to get there (like the other automatics). So even though I selected 2nd gear in my Camry, it would start in first, but quickly shift to 2nd depending on how much gas you were giving it.

 

[remc86007]

Honda automatics I have driven have had 1,2,D3,D.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm still not understanding how if you take 2.0 seconds to release a clutch in 2nd gear, that is somehow better for low traction than releasing the clutch over that same period of time in first gear. The car has to go from 0 to 8 mph instead of 0 to 4 mph, which means there has to be more acceleration starting in 2nd. More acceleration requires more grip. Why is that better than just releasing the clutch equally as slowly in first gear?

 

[ctrmofo]

Honda automatics I have driven have had 1,2,D3,D.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm still not understanding how if you take 2.0 seconds to release a clutch in 2nd gear, that is somehow better for low traction than releasing the clutch over that same period of time in first gear. The car has to go from 0 to 8 mph instead of 0 to 4 mph, which means there has to be more acceleration starting in 2nd. More acceleration requires more grip. Why is that better than just releasing the clutch equally as slowly in first gear?

lol...even on dry roads perfect condition, go out and try it. start in 2nd gear and see. don't launch in 2nd gear cuz you'll bog.

when teaching someone to drive a stick, same thing...easy to start in 2nd than 1st so they don't stall ;-)

also, it's same in a motorcycle too...can do in 2nd gear.

give it a try and see what happens.

 

[tinyman392]

Honda automatics I have driven have had 1,2,D3,D.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm still not understanding how if you take 2.0 seconds to release a clutch in 2nd gear, that is somehow better for low traction than releasing the clutch over that same period of time in first gear. The car has to go from 0 to 8 mph instead of 0 to 4 mph, which means there has to be more acceleration starting in 2nd. More acceleration requires more grip. Why is that better than just releasing the clutch equally as slowly in first gear?

Because second gear provides less torque than first gear.

Edit: or how about this, forget about the clutch for a second, what's quicker to do 8-30MPH in 2nd gear or 8-30MPH in 1st gear? The same will hold for 0-8MPH. A lower gear puts less torque to the ground, which will result in slower acceleration. It's also why it takes less time to go from 10-20MPH (in 1st gear) than it is to go from 60-80MPH (in 3rd gear).

 

[remc86007]

Because second gear provides less torque than first gear.

Edit: or how about this, forget about the clutch for a second, what's quicker to do 8-30MPH in 2nd gear or 8-30MPH in 1st gear? The same will hold for 0-8MPH. A lower gear puts less torque to the ground, which will result in slower acceleration. It's also why it takes less time to go from 10-20MPH (in 1st gear) than it is to go from 60-80MPH (in 3rd gear).

I get that there is less torque that is transferred once you are in gear. I guess what you guys are saying is that it is easier to slowly let the clutch in in 2nd to avoid wheelspin than it is in 1st. What I'm still struggling with is how a 2 second clutch release to idle in 2nd is better than 1st. More torque is being applied to the ground over the same period of time in that situation.

 

[tinyman392]

I get that there is less torque that is transferred once you are in gear. I guess what you guys are saying is that it is easier to slowly let the clutch in in 2nd to avoid wheelspin than it is in 1st. What I'm still struggling with is how a 2 second clutch release to idle in 2nd is better than 1st. More torque is being applied to the ground over the same period of time in that situation.

It’s not 2 seconds, and definitely would be longer clutch release in second than first. Your assumptions are wrong.

Edit: Another example, let's say that the gearing torque advantage in 1st gear is 1.5x the advantage in 2nd gear 1x. Let's say we treat the clutch as limiting the torque (and power) from the engine to the transmission. We can compute the output torque the system as 1.5cx and 1cx in first and second gear respectively, where x is the engine torque, and c is the amount of torque cut from the clutch (ranges from 0-1). Let's set x = 1, (100% torque). This simplifies out to 1.5c and 1c as the output torque provided by the system for first and second gear, respectively. For any given clutch input, c, the torque provided in 2nd gear < the torque provided in 1st gear. This is a little oversimplified, but it gets the gist of what's going on across. Also, if the clutch cuts engine power/torque transmission to ⅔, it provides the same amount of power/torque as a car completely in gear in 2nd gear (no clutch completely depressed).

 

[ctrmofo]

Great article...physics won't lie to you.

"These days nearly all vehicles sold in the United States are fitted with all-season tires from the factory, and 97.5 percent of replacement-tire sales are the same. But is that such a good idea? Actually, no. It turns out that all-season tires are fine in warmer months, but in the snow, they lack traction compared with dedicated snow tires. And that means that the millions of drivers who make do with all-season tires in the winter months are driving cars that aren't as safe as those shod with tires designed for icy conditions."

And this...people don't seem to understand. You net out the same in cost...

"Keep in mind that having two sets of tires isn't doubling the expense, it's halving the wear. You'll have twice the number of tires but buy new ones half as often."

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3111/can-all-season-tires-really-handle-the-snow/

 

[remc86007]

Great article...physics won't lie to you.

And this...people don't seem to understand. You net out the same in cost...

"Keep in mind that having two sets of tires isn't doubling the expense, it's halving the wear. You'll have twice the number of tires but buy new ones half as often."

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3111/can-all-season-tires-really-handle-the-snow/

Unless you can swap tires without cost, that isn't exactly true. You are either buying more wheels or paying to swap tires. But I agree with the premise that having two sets of tires is better if you live where it gets cold.

Sponsored