Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review

[fiatlux]

It sounds like the 10th gen is to the 9th gen what the 9th gen was to the 8th gen. The 9th was a much better daily driver, but the 8th was more exciting. Both of those cars weren't the fastest among their peers, but they were both more exciting, and that was a fair trade-off. This one...I'm not quite sure. No doubt the L15 is a more usable engine day-to-day, but if it's no longer more exciting than its peers, and it's still slower, then what it has left are things like MPG, reliability, price, etc.

For folks coming from one of the K-series Si's, this might be a disappointment, but I suppose if you look at it as a cheaper, more reliable GTI, then it starts to make more sense. I wouldn't be surprised if previous Si owners will be disappointed because of the lack of excitement, previous WRX/GTI/FoST/etc. owners will be disappointed because of the lack of power, but everyone else will be OK with it, especially if they don't test drive one of the other cars first. Ignorance is bliss, perhaps?

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[kritz]

I absolutely love mine 4th one(04, 08 and 15 SI's) I also had a 11 WRX limited. I find this SI as fun as any of them. Maybe I'm early Alzheimer's or something(52) My WRX

 

[neteng101]

For folks coming from one of the K-series Si's, this might be a disappointment, but I suppose if you look at it as a cheaper, more reliable GTI, then it starts to make more sense.

My personal opinion coming from a K-series Si - if you want a better daily driver, the Sport Touring hatch with CVT is the the better choice for a cheaper, more reliable GTI. As well as I can shift a stick, the CVT will totally beat me stick shifting anyday everyday all day long in smoothness... and I bet its a lot smoother than the DCT option in the GTI too. Honda's stupid rev hang means that stock MTs are always going to be very slow shifting cars if you want to shift them smoothly as you wait for that stupid electronic throttle to let the revs drop... once the Hondata reflash became available I was one of the first to send my 9th gen Si ECU off to get it reflashed... totally changed the shifting but you can't get the power gains so easily in a 9th gen reflash/tune... unlike the turbo in the 10th.

The problem with cars that are neither here nor there is that they don't quite satisfy you enough... the Si is just a sports injected Civic but still very much a Civic and the 10th gen turbo Civics really closed the gap to the Si so much compared to previous gens. Sports Touring is an easier build objective - sporty yet comfortable and easy to live with. The Si needs to rely on a lot more injection of sport but Honda's choice not to go with a detuned 2.0 turbo left the Si in a rather odd position. Its lacking some extra creature comforts that the OP is complaining about, but its also lacking that extra specialness of sports injection.

I bought my 9th gen Si knowing it was likely the last Si to remain mostly old school tech... the electronic power steering is piss poor of a replacement for the feel of hydraulic power steering, but it still had a real hand brake, key ignition, non keyless entry, etc. Ie. closer to a purist driving experience and not too overly reliant on electronics. And mostly I had hoped the K24 would make for an Si that it could capture some of the magic I've heard about the first gen TSXs like the 2006 TSX but even this Si had lost some of the Honda magic recipe like the dual wishbone suspension so unfortunately while it was a good car, it never quite lived up to my initial hopes.

 

[bikejog]

I absolutely love mine 4th one(04, 08 and 15 SI's) I also had a 11 WRX limited. I find this SI as fun as any of them. Maybe I'm early Alzheimer's or something(52) My WRX

Different kinds of fun. I think this SI might just be more fun most of the time than the Subby. I mean the Z is fast and fun, but I wouldn't want it as a daily because of it's heavy clutch, crappy gearbox, and constant engine drone sound. I think the current Civic SI/R lineup is pretty good. For people who want WRX/GTI performance, they can go with the R for about the same price. That is if Honda makes enough Rs to satisfy the market. I do wish the R comes with a roof, and maybe 18" wheels, though.

 

[Wizerud]

Different kinds of fun. I think this SI might just be more fun most of the time than the Subby. I mean the Z is fast and fun, but I wouldn't want it as a daily because of it's heavy clutch, crappy gearbox, and constant engine drone sound. I think the current Civic SI/R lineup is pretty good. For people who want WRX/GTI performance, they can go with the R for about the same price. That is if Honda makes enough Rs to satisfy the market. I do wish the R comes with a roof, and maybe 18" wheels, though.

Well that's the thing. They are not making anywhere near enough Type R's to satisfy demand. 2500-3000? That's about one fifth the volume Si's usually sell annually, if not less.

 

[bikejog]

Well that's the thing. They are not making anywhere near enough Type R's to satisfy demand. 2500-3000? That's about one fifth the volume Si's usually sell annually, if not less.

How credible is this 2500-3000 figure? Links?

 

[Wizerud]

It's the only number I've heard being mentioned. That and my dealer told me 2500. What is a fact is my dealer is getting one this year so on that basis alone it will be overpriced to the buyer who I'm sure has already bought it sight unseen.

 

[ne0guri]

Good review! Let's all be civil! I think the problem is... you were already driving a REALLY nice car before test driving the Si! I was very close to buying a hatchback simply because of the extra capacity/versatility. Do you wish it came in manual though? I hear the CVT in the touring is actually pretty damn good.

 

[neteng101]

I hear the CVT in the touring is actually pretty damn good.

The CVT really surprised me - I've had driven a bunch of stick shifts and automatics over the years. This is my first CVT - love how smooth it is and I think it really suits the 1.5T engine. 1.5T Civic + CVT in any trim level to your liking will satisfy a ton of people. But if you've not had a stick shift then maybe you might want to get the Si or other 6MT options, too bad the hatch limits you to the Sport and LX though for the 6MT (XM radio is a must have for me).

 

[ne0guri]

The CVT really surprised me - I've had driven a bunch of stick shifts and automatics over the years. This is my first CVT - love how smooth it is and I think it really suits the 1.5T engine. 1.5T Civic + CVT in any trim level to your liking will satisfy a ton of people. But if you've not had a stick shift then maybe you might want to get the Si or other 6MT options, too bad the hatch limits you to the Sport and LX though for the 6MT (XM radio is a must have for me).

should have made a hatch Si in the first place... I really liked that one weird hatch Si back in the day (2000?) where it had the gear box up really high? Can't remember it too well anymore.

 

[kritz]

^The EP3. I had a blue 04. The most ergonomically perfect car I have had. Loved the car even though it was rather slow.

 

[exyia]

Honestly, most of the things you ding it for make it more appealing to me. Given your criticisms of things the Si has never had--the luxury features of the Touring--it seems like you ended up with the car that suits you best. But a different perspective is always welcome, and your writing makes it clear where we may differ in our assessments. Thanks!

This is the conundrum that I struggled with when it came time to actually put my own money down for it - something press reviews never have to do.

People (not saying you, but people who are less openly critical of the Si) will say
"The Si has never had luxury features!"
"The Si isn't about comfort! It's about driving!"

Yet when people bring up that Honda replaced a great K-series motor with a far less interesting L15, their defense is
"This Si is more refined!"
"This Si is a better daily driver! I can't commute in the older ones anymore!"

Yeah, and you know what makes for an even better Civic every day? A regular Civic.....Touring model loaded with features....a Touring/Sport Touring (or even just any HondaSensing equipped vehicle) is an even BETTER commuter than the Si with very little sacrifice in performance.

In fact, "refinement" is the defense that everyone says for the Si, including Honda. And THAT'S the problem. It's a cop out answer for a car that could and SHOULD be so much better. If "refinement" is what you're looking for in your next Civic - the Touring/Sport Touring is loaded with it, absolutely LOADED.

...This one...I'm not quite sure. No doubt the L15 is a more usable engine day-to-day, but if it's no longer more exciting than its peers, and it's still slower, then what it has left are things like MPG, reliability, price, etc.

And that's the problem - if those are merits for defending the 2017 Si - what happened? How has Honda lost focus on what the Si should be...

Great cars are more than the sum of their parts. This one isn't. It merely is the sum of its parts.

The Civic Si practically created it's own market segment - practical dailies that have TONS of sportiness and edge. For 2017/10th gen, Honda seemed to have created "just enough", but forgot why we forgave a low-torque, 200hp engine in a Civic in the first place - because despite it's numbers, the (old) Si's were just SO MUCH FUN.

My personal opinion coming from a K-series Si - if you want a better daily driver, the Sport Touring hatch with CVT is the the better choice for a cheaper, more reliable GTI. ...

The problem with cars that are neither here nor there is that they don't quite satisfy you enough... the Si is just a sports injected Civic but still very much a Civic and the 10th gen turbo Civics really closed the gap to the Si so much compared to previous gens. Sports Touring is an easier build objective - sporty yet comfortable and easy to live with. The Si needs to rely on a lot more injection of sport but Honda's choice not to go with a detuned 2.0 turbo left the Si in a rather odd position. Its lacking some extra creature comforts that the OP is complaining about, but its also lacking that extra specialness of sports injection.

I bought my 9th gen Si knowing it was likely the last Si to remain mostly old school tech...

Yup, exactly! The main reason I decided on the ST hatch in the first place - but part of me still wanted to like the Si, so I still gave it a chance. My deal still stands at the dealership. I keep thinking I could still go get it.

But I think - ok I got the Si now. It needs more torque/power. I need to change out the cheap cloth trim. I need to throw better tires on it. And THEN, it might feel special. And THEN I'm getting good use out of the LSD. And THEN it feels like a sports car hidden in a Civic. As it is now, it just feels like a manual Civic and nothing more. When I took my first drive in a used Si, I didn't care what was on it, what was done to it, what needed to be done to it - it was just so eager and fun as-is.

Engineering Explained's review really hit it home for me on my conclusions - also helps because he was with Carlos Lago, probably one of the best journalists from his videos back on MotorTrend. Carlos is never afraid to show emotion and excitement when driving something, but there really wasn't anything to talk about on the Si. You could see it in his face.....as if the whole time he's thinking "yup, this is a 200hp turbocharged Civic with good suspension". In fact, hardly any journalist/press had a genuine smile on their face walking away from the Si - it was merely, "this is nice". I never got a sense of "I need to have one", "I would totally buy one" from any review - something you CAN see from reviews of the FRS/BRZ, FiestaST, and other cars that really struck emotional cords.

Good review! Let's all be civil! I think the problem is... you were already driving a REALLY nice car before test driving the Si! I was very close to buying a hatchback simply because of the extra capacity/versatility. Do you wish it came in manual though? I hear the CVT in the touring is actually pretty damn good.

The CVT practically gives this L15 it's own personality and is a perfect pairing. It may be a small engine with a meager turbo - but when it gets going it just never ends. It's like a hyped up bunny that never stops. An effortless shove that keeps pulling and pulling and pulling and pulling. And most of all - it feels modern, as in "this is how you get the most out of an engine", for both performance and MPG. You want power? You get ALL THE POWER, ALL THE TIME. You want to just drive to the next point? Ok sir, I'll handle stop and go. You combine that with all the other features/tech, and you get a car that truly feels modern. Not just more refined - modern.

And even in manual mode, it shifts "gears" fast enough to be useable/enjoyable - and this is coming from someone who drives a dual clutch Evo X (the best DCT sub 40k out there).

 

[dmitri]

The CVT practically gives this L15 it's own personality and is a perfect pairing. It may be a small engine with a meager turbo - but when it gets going it just never ends. It's like a hyped up bunny that never stops. An effortless shove that keeps pulling and pulling and pulling and pulling.

You seem to be suggesting that it is nearly impossible to "give this L15 it's own personality" without the CVT, i.e. in a manual variant/with 6MT. I'm having a hard time agreeing with that. I may be completely disappointed after a test drive, but I also realize it would be due largely to my driving NA Honda engines since 1994 (and VTEC since 1997).

NA engines are simply more intuitive, even without VTEC -- i.e. the more you push the gas pedal down, the more power/speed/fun you get in return. Turbos seem to have their own "fun curve" which is, at least on paper, just as good/high, but it seems much less intuitive, in that sense. You push the gas pedal, the revs go up, the power builds up... until suddenly it doesn't.

I think it is only "less fun" because it's not as intuitive/"natural" of a response, compared to NA powertrains' behavior; the driver's has certain expectations, and they aren't met.

My hope is that those expectations can be managed and adjusted. That hope seems to be confirmed as reality with every positive review I read. These people aren't brainwashed or paid by Honda to say good things about the car -- they actually feel good about it. So it's clearly possible.

Anyway... we'll see how it goes.
Can't wait to test-drive the damn thing already and get all that out of my system...

 

[neteng101]

You seem to be suggesting that it is nearly impossible to "give this L15 it's own personality" without the CVT, i.e. in a manual variant/with 6MT.

Its like taking Ellen Ripley in the original Alien movie and changing out the combat boots for a pair of high heels. The L15 personality is just not very compatible with boy racer aspirations, its much more suited for a more relaxed touring oriented role. And the CVT will hold revs if you dig into the throttle, so you don't get the cycling of a stick shift so its just one seamless application of power with the L15 turbo. It just works when you pair the two together.

 

[exyia]

You seem to be suggesting that it is nearly impossible to "give this L15 it's own personality" without the CVT, i.e. in a manual variant/with 6MT. I'm having a hard time agreeing with that. I may be completely disappointed after a test drive, but I also realize it would be due largely to my driving NA Honda engines since 1994 (and VTEC since 1997).

NA engines are simply more intuitive, even without VTEC -- i.e. the more you push the gas pedal down, the more power/speed/fun you get in return. Turbos seem to have their own "fun curve" which is, at least on paper, just as good/high, but it seems much less intuitive, in that sense. You push the gas pedal, the revs go up, the power builds up... until suddenly it doesn't.

I think it is only "less fun" because it's not as intuitive/"natural" of a response, compared to NA powertrains' behavior; the driver's has certain expectations, and they aren't met.

My hope is that those expectations can be managed and adjusted. That hope seems to be confirmed as reality with every positive review I read. These people aren't brainwashed or paid by Honda to say good things about the car -- they actually feel good about it. So it's clearly possible.

Anyway... we'll see how it goes.
Can't wait to test-drive the damn thing already and get all that out of my system...

No, it's more of a gripe that HONDA didn't give any personality to it.

We know from the non Si Civics that with a +6psi Hondata Basemap (or Ktuner equivalent), the car wakes up and becomes a really peppy little thing.

Sure, NA engines feel different in a way you can't replicate with a smaller displacement + turbo - but that doesn't mean small engine turbos can't have a character all on their own.

Essentially, for years we've forgiven Honda's so-so number of ~200hp because it was MORE than the sum of it's parts. It may have only been 200hp, but it was the most fun 200hp you could ever experience.

Then when Honda came to the 10th gen Si, "ok we managed 200hp with a turbo on a small motor instead", they completely missed the point. "But it has more torque in the low-mid range!" - yeah but every manufacturer can make a car that does that. Only Hondas could create such an adrenaline filled experience with so little car. There's nothing that makes this Si unique. Nothing that makes it feel more than what it looks on paper.

I would have totally been on board if Honda tore up the formula and created an all new type of driving experience with the 10th gen Si. New platform, 10th generation, new motor, turbo for the first time - hell yeah do something unique and different with it!

Instead, they tuned it to just fix the old complaint of low end torque and thought that was enough. Adaptive dampers and two driving modes were a wasted technology. All the best comfort/feature tech is not found on the Si. They had SO much yet did so little is my main complaint.

With how much was BRAND NEW on this generation Si, you would think reviews would come away with something DIFFERENT. But instead, all we got are reviews of "it's a sporty feeling Civic with more torque and a good price". That's it? C'mon Honda...

Best of luck on your test drive! Report back! I would 100% not buy this generation Si without a test drive. Too much has changed, and as I've reviewed - not enough, and not for the better.

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