Rumors swirl.... 2016 Civic Si 2.0T with about 230hp.

[takemorepills]

Well, this is a CTR issue, not an Si issue (Si forum). And basically, it's a non-issue for USA folks since the GTI Clubsport will never be sold here anyways, so no matter what the CTR could possibly be the hottest FWD available here in the USA.

If VW can turn up a GTI like that, then surely we'll see Si's (presuming 2.0T and aftermarket support) get turned up beyond stock CTR performance also.

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[warrendeath]

I can't believe it has been this long without any sort of news...Rather frustrating.

 

[Design]

Well, this is a CTR issue, not an Si issue (Si forum). And basically, it's a non-issue for USA folks since the GTI Clubsport will never be sold here anyways, so no matter what the CTR could possibly be the hottest FWD available here in the USA.

If VW can turn up a GTI like that, then surely we'll see Si's (presuming 2.0T and aftermarket support) get turned up beyond stock CTR performance also.

Many consider it a precursor to the MKVIII. And rumorville suggests around 260 HP in the US by 2018/19. If anyone is listening, it's Honda. And is likely one of several reasons we haven't heard a peep about the Si (yet).

 

[takemorepills]

Many consider it a precursor to the MKVIII. And rumorville suggests around 260 HP in the US by 2018/19. If anyone is listening, it's Honda. And is likely one of several reasons we haven't heard a peep about the Si (yet).

I wonder if they mean 260 "to the wheels" again, or if they just begin rating flywheel HP. As I am sure you know, but others may not, the GTI puts all of it's rated power, and then some, to the wheels, which is why it is so quick. It's basically already at 260HP by other manufacturers rating methods.

And yeah, I hope Honda is listening to us Honda fans who are using the GTI as a placeholder for a proper return to the "good old days" when Honda Si was competitive.

 

[Apeks]

I wonder if they mean 260 "to the wheels" again, or if they just begin rating flywheel HP. As I am sure you know, but others may not, the GTI puts all of it's rated power, and then some, to the wheels, which is why it is so quick. It's basically already at 260HP by other manufacturers rating methods.

And yeah, I hope Honda is listening to us Honda fans who are using the GTI as a placeholder for a proper return to the "good old days" when Honda Si was competitive.

How do you find the GTI? I have never been interested in VW but I tried a DSG MK7 GTI a while back and was very impressed with the handling and overall composure of the car. I didn't really enjoy the transmission but I think I could understand why people would like it. Just a bit too boring really, nothing really wrong with it mechanically. But more recently I tried a manual performance package GTI and MAN, I did not know VW made cars at this level. I enjoyed that more than a Focus ST I tried and the Golf had a better interior. I'm more curious about the ownership experience and things you may have heard about reliability. I am torn between the GTI performance pack and the Golf R. In Canada they are almost the same price. The GTI is lighter, better fuel economy, has a sunroof, less complicated drivetrain(repair wise). The Golf R is just a monster but I think the hatch is a tiny bit smaller due to AWD. and obviously worse FE, heavier etc. So a 6MT GTI or 6MT Golf R either way what do you think of the Golf so far and would you recommend it? I hope honda kills it with the Si but if they don't have a hatchback version it may not matter because I'd need that space. Thanks,

 

[JYR]

Where I work, several people have GTI's that have seen many track days and are typically driven hard. With routine maintenance, they have been solid cars with -0- issues. The routine maintenance schedule is no different than a Civic.

The only significant increase between a manual and DSG car is the service cost of a DSG transmission. The DSG requires a $400-$600 service every 40,000 miles, depending on where you take it to. My dealer charges $520 for the service. Word on the street is that if the 40k DSG service is neglected, you are asking for trouble.

I currently DD a Jetta TDI diesel and it has been flawless. The overall quality feel of the car is significantly better than the 9gen Si I had.

 

[Apeks]

Where I work, several people have GTI's that have seen many track days and are typically driven hard. With routine maintenance, they have been solid cars with -0- issues. The routine maintenance schedule is no different than a Civic.

The only significant increase between a manual and DSG car is the service cost of a DSG transmission. The DSG requires a $400-$600 service every 40,000 miles, depending on where you take it to. My dealer charges $520 for the service. Word on the street is that if the 40k DSG service is neglected, you are asking for trouble.

I currently DD a Jetta TDI diesel and it has been flawless. The overall quality feel of the car is significantly better than the 9gen Si I had.

Many thanks for the response bud. That is very good to hear actually. I think reliability and the service costs were my main concern with VWs. But that GTI was so good I was willing to really look in to picking one up.

As I said, I do hope Honda hits it out of the park with the Si. For my money VW has the best sport compact/hatch on the market right now. The Golf R vs Focus RS would be a good match up but I think I'd take the Golf at this point due to higher refinement and a better interior.

The Si really has to be something really special in my opinion to compete with the package VW has. An Si hatch with at least 240hp with a 6speed LSD tranny would be my sweet spot. I'd have to try them back to back to decide at that point. I guess if Honda doesn't make a hatch Si that makes my life easier technically.

 

[takemorepills]

How do you find the GTI? I have never been interested in VW but I tried a DSG MK7 GTI a while back and was very impressed with the handling and overall composure of the car. I didn't really enjoy the transmission but I think I could understand why people would like it. Just a bit too boring really, nothing really wrong with it mechanically. But more recently I tried a manual performance package GTI and MAN, I did not know VW made cars at this level. I enjoyed that more than a Focus ST I tried and the Golf had a better interior. I'm more curious about the ownership experience and things you may have heard about reliability. I am torn between the GTI performance pack and the Golf R. In Canada they are almost the same price. The GTI is lighter, better fuel economy, has a sunroof, less complicated drivetrain(repair wise). The Golf R is just a monster but I think the hatch is a tiny bit smaller due to AWD. and obviously worse FE, heavier etc. So a 6MT GTI or 6MT Golf R either way what do you think of the Golf so far and would you recommend it? I hope honda kills it with the Si but if they don't have a hatchback version it may not matter because I'd need that space. Thanks,

I love my GTI. I have heard the concern that it is too "mellow" compared to other high strung hot hatches. But the fact is, by the numbers it performs better than anything in its class, and responds to tuning exponentially. It is, by far, the best GTI ever made yet. Mine is DSG, and I have a JB1. It can be very mellow, but when I get frisky with it the turbo whistles loudly and the DSG "farts" between shifts in a way reminiscent of a real sports car. It has lots of attitude when you have the windows down and can hear what it is doing. And, with a JB1 many people are getting 108-109MPH trap speeds in the 1/4. On a roll it is mean mo-fo. Off the line it can blow off the tires and lose a lot in the first 0-30.

Also, my wife would not have appreciated riding around in a high-strung alien-faced Focus or Fiesta ST. She would complain about the crappy design and crappy ride. Even those cars "feel" more raw, the GTI is the better performer and if you feel like making the GTI more "raw", there is plenty of aftermarket support to change its "feel".

Honestly, I would get the R. Here in USA, VW incentives makes the price difference between my GTI and a DSG R about $8-9K, plus the waiting list thing. Also, USDM R doesn't get sunroof. But, the R is much faster than a GTI, first off the line, and continues to pull harder on a roll. My JB1 GTI can hang with an R on a roll, or slightly pull on it, but the R with a JB1 will kill the GTI. The R always maintains it's advantage over the GTI.

Other things I like about my GTI:
-Infotainment system (MIB2) is super nice. Very stable and reliable.
-FE is very good, 32 in town and 35 on long, high speed road trips with a very aggressive driver. I was astonished.
-Interior durability is phenomenal. We went to Cali, and my kid dragged in sand, put his sandy feet all over the door panel and leather. When I got home, I was expecting scratches everywhere like as would happen in my Hondas. Nope, not a scratch, super durable interior and cleaned up like new. And the leather is very thick and soft.
-Compared to CivicX, the sheet metal is very strong. The car feels substantial (it is heavier) and none of the panels flex at all when you wash it. The car feels like money well spent.

My car cost me $29K before taxes, and I could have got a base GTI S DSG for about $26K and it would be the same experience as my GTI, minus the leather, sunroof, Fender and lighting package. For $26K it would be an outstanding deal. At $29K, I kinda wish I could have stretched a bit more for an R.

 

[thaseint]

Never really thought I would be considering this; but given the fact that the Si will be a coupe/sedan and the Type R could possibly be a limited production run, I have opened up to the idea of getting a GTI or R. Really want a 4 door hatch that has some go.

Unfortunately the only thing that still scares me about German cars is the reliability. I know maintenance is key when it comes to German cars; but as someone who works on their cars, repairs always seemed a bit more involved (for no real good reason) for German cars, thousands of bolts, weird special tools, odd sensitive little sensors, etc.

I remember trying to replace the intake manifold on my wife's old MKV GTI...gave up half way through, removed about a hundred of those socket cap screws of various lengths before thinking to myself "Was this really necessary? And why not just use a few regular hex head bolts?" I was so happy the day she traded it in and got herself a 2015 Fit.

 

[Design]

Modern German cars haven't really improved in that respect. They are and have always been a pain to work on. At least compared to their Japanese counterparts. The stereotypical characteristic of "over-engineered" or "redundancy" is synonymous with most German products. Not necessarily a bad thing, depending on one's priorities. But from a maintenance perspective, German cars become a disadvantage once they cross the 80-100K range.

Granted, neither of these platforms will be easy to access. But the foundation of Japanese engineering continues to be simplicity above all else.

 

[mvance30]

Modern German cars haven't really improved in that respect. They are and have always been a pain to work on. At least compared to their Japanese counterparts. The stereotypical characteristic of "over-engineered" or "redundancy" is synonymous with most German products. Not necessarily a bad thing, depending on one's priorities. But from a maintenance perspective, German cars become a disadvantage once they cross the 80-100K range.

Granted, neither of these platforms will be easy to access. But the foundation of Japanese engineering continues to be simplicity above all else.

all depends on how you treat it. I've owned about 10 older cheaper bmws. e30s, e36s, e46. my e46 had 263k miles on it and besides burning a bit of oil, ran like a champ.

 

[Apeks]

I love my GTI. I have heard the concern that it is too "mellow" compared to other high strung hot hatches. But the fact is, by the numbers it performs better than anything in its class, and responds to tuning exponentially. It is, by far, the best GTI ever made yet. Mine is DSG, and I have a JB1. It can be very mellow, but when I get frisky with it the turbo whistles loudly and the DSG "farts" between shifts in a way reminiscent of a real sports car. It has lots of attitude when you have the windows down and can hear what it is doing. And, with a JB1 many people are getting 108-109MPH trap speeds in the 1/4. On a roll it is mean mo-fo. Off the line it can blow off the tires and lose a lot in the first 0-30.

Also, my wife would not have appreciated riding around in a high-strung alien-faced Focus or Fiesta ST. She would complain about the crappy design and crappy ride. Even those cars "feel" more raw, the GTI is the better performer and if you feel like making the GTI more "raw", there is plenty of aftermarket support to change its "feel".

Honestly, I would get the R. Here in USA, VW incentives makes the price difference between my GTI and a DSG R about $8-9K, plus the waiting list thing. Also, USDM R doesn't get sunroof. But, the R is much faster than a GTI, first off the line, and continues to pull harder on a roll. My JB1 GTI can hang with an R on a roll, or slightly pull on it, but the R with a JB1 will kill the GTI. The R always maintains it's advantage over the GTI.

Other things I like about my GTI:
-Infotainment system (MIB2) is super nice. Very stable and reliable.
-FE is very good, 32 in town and 35 on long, high speed road trips with a very aggressive driver. I was astonished.
-Interior durability is phenomenal. We went to Cali, and my kid dragged in sand, put his sandy feet all over the door panel and leather. When I got home, I was expecting scratches everywhere like as would happen in my Hondas. Nope, not a scratch, super durable interior and cleaned up like new. And the leather is very thick and soft.
-Compared to CivicX, the sheet metal is very strong. The car feels substantial (it is heavier) and none of the panels flex at all when you wash it. The car feels like money well spent.

My car cost me $29K before taxes, and I could have got a base GTI S DSG for about $26K and it would be the same experience as my GTI, minus the leather, sunroof, Fender and lighting package. For $26K it would be an outstanding deal. At $29K, I kinda wish I could have stretched a bit more for an R.

This is great feedback man thanks. Another follow up if you don't mind. Do you have the performance package on the car or not? I don't really care about the 10HP but the LSD is some beneficial hardware(plus upgraded brakes). But that's where the price gets in to range of the R in Canada when you get that package. Otherwise I'd get a base GTI 5 door which is the autobahn here. If you don't have the perf. Pack. how do you find the handling? Is the package worth it or not needed? I tend to think I'd need it in a FWD so I might end up getting a used one with the package. But I'm open to other opinions. Thanks again.

 

[takemorepills]

Never really thought I would be considering this; but given the fact that the Si will be a coupe/sedan and the Type R could possibly be a limited production run, I have opened up to the idea of getting a GTI or R. Really want a 4 door hatch that has some go.

Unfortunately the only thing that still scares me about German cars is the reliability. I know maintenance is key when it comes to German cars; but as someone who works on their cars, repairs always seemed a bit more involved (for no real good reason) for German cars, thousands of bolts, weird special tools, odd sensitive little sensors, etc.

I remember trying to replace the intake manifold on my wife's old MKV GTI...gave up half way through, removed about a hundred of those socket cap screws of various lengths before thinking to myself "Was this really necessary? And why not just use a few regular hex head bolts?" I was so happy the day she traded it in and got herself a 2015 Fit.

Modern German cars haven't really improved in that respect. They are and have always been a pain to work on. At least compared to their Japanese counterparts. The stereotypical characteristic of "over-engineered" or "redundancy" is synonymous with most German products. Not necessarily a bad thing, depending on one's priorities. But from a maintenance perspective, German cars become a disadvantage once they cross the 80-100K range.

Granted, neither of these platforms will be easy to access. But the foundation of Japanese engineering continues to be simplicity above all else.

Now I won't go and say that the GTI or German cars are "easy" to work on, but I doubt that a modern German car is so much worse to work on than the latest Hondas. I have tinkered around with my GTI. I am old school Honda, and the plastic parts and creative parts placements on the GTI put me off a bit. Would I want to work on this in 10+ years? No way. But the new CivicX is no better. It is also moving to lots of plastic parts and creative packaging also.

Even comparing my 2016 GTI to my 87 Prelude Si doesn't put the German car in such bad perspective. I am currently replacing a bunch of old underhood parts on my Prelude, and it is a mo-fo to get to crap. Radiator hoses and heater hoses are a beeyotch, distributor o-ring would be easy if there wasn't a bunch of crap all around the distributor, I can't just remove the dizzy without tearing out a bunch of lines, the alternator is in a crappy place, and the valves should be adjusted every 15K. Honestly, my Prelude is proving to be more work for me than my current level of motivation allows.

This is great feedback man thanks. Another follow up if you don't mind. Do you have the performance package on the car or not? I don't really care about the 10HP but the LSD is some beneficial hardware(plus upgraded brakes). But that's where the price gets in to range of the R in Canada when you get that package. Otherwise I'd get a base GTI 5 door which is the autobahn here. If you don't have the perf. Pack. how do you find the handling? Is the package worth it or not needed? I tend to think I'd need it in a FWD so I might end up getting a used one with the package. But I'm open to other opinions. Thanks again.

The PP is nice, but the fastest GTI (11 sec 120+ MPH stock DSG) doesn't have PP. On dyno, PP and non PP both put about 215-220 at wheels, there is no 10HP delta between them. 0-60 times is the same also. The PP improves the feel of the car in high speed turns, but doesn't post better numbers. I think the brakes are the big reason to consider, the brakes are a bit better.

Since my car is a lease, I opted out of PP. The eLSD or VAQ doesn't reduce the FWD burnout at all. A non-PP GTI resists one wheel peel pretty well as-is. The VAQ is more like Honda's SH system.

 

[thaseint]

Now I won't go and say that the GTI or German cars are "easy" to work on, but I doubt that a modern German car is so much worse to work on than the latest Hondas. I have tinkered around with my GTI. I am old school Honda, and the plastic parts and creative parts placements on the GTI put me off a bit. Would I want to work on this in 10+ years? No way. But the new CivicX is no better. It is also moving to lots of plastic parts and creative packaging also.

Definitely put's things in perspective a little bit.

I've seen the 1.5L turbo engine bay and it gives me nightmares just thinking about working on that in 7+ years. The 2.0L turbo motor currently in the CTR and rumored to be in the Si look a little friendlier but it's definitely no B-series.

The K20A3 in my EP3 isn't too bad to work on; but there are some things that I wouldn't dare touch and would rather let someone else deal with...pretty much anything that requires dropping the subframe.

I guess it'll come down to how often things will need to be repaired, replaced and/or maintained. Also, comes down to which car is more likely to leave you stranded if things do break down.

 

[mvance30]

if you get a GTI get it with the performance pack. its great value for the money.

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