High K.Con Values & Slight Knock

[KOIVUN1]

Not yet. Working on obtaining a laptop so I can hand in a real datalog and not some half-assed CSV or shaky video.

did you ask ktuner for help?

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[TheDeliSauce]

did you ask ktuner for help?

Not yet. I'm confident that I won't encounter the connectivity issue on a different device, but if I do I'll reach out to KTuner.

 

[gtman]

Have you reached out to John Vega (@phearable)?

 

[TheDeliSauce]

Have you reached out to John Vega (@phearable)?

Thanks for reminding me! I just reached out and provided him a link. I also let him know I'm working on getting a laptop for a datalog worth our time.

 

[TheDeliSauce]

I finally obtained a laptop for a solid datalog. About 14 minutes (6 min normal, 8 min Mexico).

I reviewed another longer one that ended up deleted by accident.
Knockcount never really went up, but K.Con retard skyrockets easily.
Air & fuel looks about right all around.
Timings, targets, etc look normal to my eye.

The only thing I can think of at this point is just complete garbage luck with gas quality, but from three different stations? Both E85 and 93? Mentioned my findings to the gramps whose had a hand in cars since he was younger than I. He asked about my tensioner & belt as there is a distinct RPM-dependant knocking noise, but no real mechanical issue that I could find physically or in data. Hopefully one of yous guys can see or think of something that I can't. Thanks for the continuing help, fellas.

 

[TheDeliSauce]

Anyone have any thoughts after reviewing the datalog?
Just trying to get an idea of what is going on or if I can check something else before having a shop / stealership keep this thing for a month.

 

[gtman]

Like you said everything looks normal basically except that once you went full throttle, knock control skyrocketed. And it stayed there but to be fair you did a couple more full throttle pulls at that point so it wasn't going to be dropping down.

What I've noticed in my own driving is that after my knock control goes up, it take's a bit of low to medium throttle driving and at load to really start dropping back down. If I was to continue to hammer the throttle it would stay high for a longer time.

I know that's not a solution just what I've observed. Not sure what's going on if it's not gas quality related.

 

[TheDeliSauce]

Took it to the local shop to check the belt & tensioner. Their senior tech took a crack at it and found the belt to be flopping around and acting inconsistent. They'll be replacing it once it gets in tomorrow, maybe tensioner if it's still acting up.

If that works, then my grandpa was right yet again. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of that since all my hands-on and listening to the computer ECU and datalogs didn't show anything but the knock climbing like a Saturn V rocket. Will follow-up once things are confirmed.

 

[TheDeliSauce]

No dice on the belt (And they didn't notice anything wrong with tensioner). I guess it's time to move on to the compression test. Just gotta figure out if I can do it myself for cheaper than a shop (Or find a shop if I have to).

 

[csiegel84]

On October 29'th, I was driving around with my brother in-law (Owns a slightly modded CivicX himself) as he hadn't gotten to ride in it since I've installed more than just the intake. I got to make the first partial pull or two and notice the K.con blipping up into the .6's and .7's.I thought it was very strange and wasn't sure what it was but was immediately concerned. When getting onto the freeway, I did one solid 1-2-3 and it shot up to ~.79. I knew something was wrong. Since then it has only gotten much worse in regards to K.con, with the values maxing out at 1.09 even when grandma driving on the freeway (The highest I've ever heard of). I'm able to get it back down to .49 through grandma driving under ~2.5K RPM and ~45MPH. I also noticed a slight knock from ~1.9K - ~2.9K RPM in first, second, and third gears. Knock is more-or-less non-existent in neutral, even up to 3K RPM.

Some of the strange things I've noticed is that I can grandma drive in sixth ~70MPH and get K.con all the way up to 1.09, yet I can do mild pulls in low gears and increase little if at all sometimes. It seems slightly inconsistent. I can lug a bit to bring values all the way down to .49 again, but it'll blip backup a few percent on occasion. I've also noticed sometimes I'll get a brief loss of low-end torque (Bogging). No coolant in the oil, and no oil in the coolant, all levels right at the top max lines. I've already changed plugs and seen no improvement. I've also noticed my STFT all over (-17 - +17) & LTFT being high (-1 - +7) as well as ATF ratios being sporadic (13.7 - 15.7). All grandma driving since this began (After a few partial pulls early on to see what was happening). I have also tried reflashing my tune, but it soon jumped up to .62 once loop-closed.

I had just filled up with Meijer (Top Tier Gas) 93 & 1 gallon of E85 prior to that trip. I initially thought it could've been some real bad gas, but after running that tank below 1/4, I filled it up with good ole' BP 93 and threw in a Techron complete cleaner in case I gunked it with too much E85. No change in K.con values, even after going through ~1/4 tank of the good stuff. I got myself a borescope, felt around the injectors for leaks/fluids. Found some oil around the bottom of the insulation between the injectors and the intake manifold, but no gas or leaks. Likely spilled some oil and forgot to clean it last change. I took the borescope and poked inside the spark plug openings to check on the cylinders and their walls. The walls look new, so no worries of horrific rod deformation causing pistons to kill the linings. Pistons are looking mighty clean with the cleaner running through. Unable to get a good look at the valves or injectors as my mirror attachment is useless.

I've talked with a handful of other CivicX modders and even certified Honda mechanics. The only two ideas that make any sense at this point are a bent rod or bad injectors. Anyone else have any ideas or agree with either idea still on the table?


I will also be adding this information to my tune stability post once all is taken care of here.

Relevant mods (Most have been installed since ~40K miles, now at ~55.6K miles):
- Phearable 1.5 Race (PRL Race MAF, tuned on Phearable for ~14K miles, ~9 months through KTuner v1.2, displayed through rooted head unit)
- PRL Cobra CAI Race MAF
- PRL Catted Downpipe & Frontpipe
- Ark DT-S exhaust
- Comp Clutch Stage 2 w/ 22Lb SM flywheel (Third gear lockout above 6K RPM)
- Frankenstein's monster of shifter parts (Acuity, Perrin, Torque Solutions, Boomba)
- No upgraded FMIC or fuel system upgrades. New NGKs gapped to .028"

Relevant maintenance & potential causes:
- Had high K.Con and slight knock since ~55.3K (Went from .79 to 1.09 in matter of ~150 miles. Switched to grandma driving when K.con increased)
- Run either BP 93 or Meijer (Top Tier Gas) 93 + E85 mix to "E10" (K.Con would never leave .49)
- Valvoline Advanced Full-Synthetic SAE 5W-30 every 3K - 5K miles. Amsoil Synchromesh since ~42.8K
- Got sloppy with shifting in early September (Tried to "pull" shifter into my hand into third instead of pushing. I partially blame third gear lockout for not making it all the way to third gear. WOT 1-2-1 then 2-1. Caught both times before fully engaged clutch)


I tried to upload a video of revving in neutral up to 2.5K RPM to the subtleness or lack of knock without load, and a picture or my K.con relaxing back down to .49 after having been all the way up to 1.09. I wasn't able to get the pictures of my pistons & cylinder walls from my borescope as I seem to have misplaced my adapter to upload them through my PC.

First image of spark plugs is from my change of plugs in response to the issues. Definitely toasty from running too much Map 3 and driving spirited. Second image is compared with old plugs that I've had misfire issues with prior to tuning (Bad idea, but better than running ones I know to cause deathly knock).third is a video trying to show the subtle knocking noise.

What you're describing here is exactly what I've been experiencing since about the middle of September of 2021. When it first started, I originally thought it was simply just a bad batch of fuel, but the issue is still persisting for me, 4-5 months later, with no solution.

2019 FC3 Si Coupe
38k miles [owned since 14k (bone stock) / tuned since 19k]
Relevant Mods:
- Ktuner V2 on TSP Stage 1
- PRL Cobra CAI (Race MAF)
- Injen FMIC w/ stock charge pipes
- HKS Hi-Power FP-back exhaust

Maintenance
- Oil changed every 5k with Amsoil Signature full synthetic 0W-20 and OEM filter (no coolant in oil and no oil in coolant, levels are just fine on both)

The issue seems to happen fairly sporadically/inconsistently as far as I can tell, but still somewhat often. Exactly as you've been experiencing, I've seen Knock Control values as high as 1.09 (Obviously extremely high for what I'm used to. Even before installing the FMIC in September 2020, my K Con. would sit firmly at 0.49 after repeated WOT pulls on the highway as well as aggressive spirited driving on backroads during the summer with fairly high IATs). With a few miles of easy (grandma) driving and holding the MAP around 2-3 PSI, it eventually makes its way back down to 0.49. No odd or abnormal sounds as far I can tell, and the car feels great [Normal driving all the time, and WOT when K Con. is at 0.49 (obviously feels sluggish and slow when K Con. rises, as it pulls timing)]. AFRs look pretty good at right around 13.9-15.3 under normal driving and 10.6-11.9 under WOT. LTFT sits nicely between -3 and +3 (mostly between -1 and +1), and STFT under WOT sits nicely at about -8 to +8, but it seems a bit wonky under decel, sometimes dropping as low as -25 but I've been told that's fairly normal. I'll attach a data log at the bottom from November 6th, 2021.

First attempt at finding a solution was simply to take it easy on the tank of fuel that I had in the car at the time, believing it was just a bad batch (BP 93). I did so and made sure to fill up with Meijer 93 once the tank was empty. K Con. continued to skyrocket, so I figured I just had terrible luck with back-to-back batches of bad quality fuel. I did the same as before, taking it easy on the whole tank, and figured I'd try a different station (even though I'd never had any issues with either of those stations' 93 in the past). This time I tried Shell 93, and of course, still no luck. After that, I figured it's very likely not a fuel quality issue as others have mentioned. Even months later, and many different tanks of 93, the issue still persists.

Second attempt was to replace all 4 plugs with brand new OEM NGK's gapped to 0.029", as I've had random misfire issues in the past (would throw a P030* cylinder specific code, would replace with a fresh OEM NGK, and it would run like new. Code went away, although, in this situation, no codes have been presented). Went for about a 20-minute drive and the issue still persisted.

Third attempt was to reflash the TSP tune, still no luck. After that, I figured I might as well throw the stock intake back on and flash the factory tune back onto the ECU. Again, still no luck.

I checked the PRL filter at the end of the Cobra intake and it looks pretty clean (replaced with a brand new one about 4 and a half months ago).

After that, I had many individuals tell me to try replacing the knock sensor with a fresh OEM one, and if that didn't work, then try replacing the injectors with a fresh set of OEM, so I'm figuring those are the next two steps. Plan is to get a borescope and take a look at all 4 cylinders as well, run a compression test, and possibly pull the pan off to take a look at the bottom end from below.

I'll keep you guys updated, and if anyone has any more insight, it would be much appreciated. I can gather some more targeted data logs if anyone is interested and if it might be helpful.

 

[Jes_si562]

TTbe

Here is the rest of the media.

The picture of my TunerView app showing K.Con back down to .49 after having it at 1.09.

The video of slowly revving in neutral up to ~2.5K RPM.

Each of the cylinders (I know it's not TDC, but it's at least a look inside).

The last picture looks like the piston was hiting something

 

[TeamDT]

Hi there,

I saw your Datalog, observed few things,
your car is knocking,
since the tune is commanding good amount of timing you need very good fuel. to solve this issue.

What fuel is recommend with this tune?
What I think you should move to a stock tune for testing.
can you revert back to the Ktuner stock tune and selecting PRL race MAf, can you do that?

 

[TheDeliSauce]

We have an update (Conclusion):
https://www.civicx.com/forum/threads/thedelisauces-si-build-so-far.76499/

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