Yet anther set of tires ruined at the track...

  1. djhartm

    djhartm Senior Member

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    #1 djhartm, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    The OEM wheels and the 30 profiles tires have destroyed yet another set of of tires in 1.5 events,

    I thought switching to the Cup 2 with their more aggressive sidewall would solve the problem of thread delamination on the outside front tires.

    Not so.

    I have as much negative camber as I can go without resorting to camber plates.

    If I keep instructing in this car, the only solution will be to go to higher sidewall tires.

    Luckily I was able to get Michelin to warranty the tires.

    Tire Rack did not do shit for me. If you track your car, do yourself a big favor and buy locally.
     
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  2. DPL8

    DPL8 Senior Member

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    Do what everyone else does... go to 18s that will solve your issue
     
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  3. frodooftheshire

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    Wouldn’t 19s work pretty well too?
     
  4. willskiGT

    willskiGT Senior Member

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    What hot pressures were you running? How did the warranty process work with Michelin?

    I'm running 245/30/20 Cup 2s as well, so interested to hear more about what happened. The solution may be RE-71R in a 245/35/20 fitment (meatier sidewalls). The Bridgestones have an even stiffer sidewall as well.
     
  5. OP
    OP
    djhartm

    djhartm Senior Member

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    Thanks, I may try the Bridgestones next.

    I started at 38/33 cold. It looked like the fronts rolled a bit more than I like, so I went to 41 cold.

    I phoned Michelin and opened a warranty claim. Had an inspection done, then when they offered me 30%, plead my case in a follow-up call and asked that a supervisor review.

    Tire Rack did jack shit for me. Will never buy from them again. Used my local Discount Tire to deal with Michelin.
     
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  6. willskiGT

    willskiGT Senior Member

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    Wow, that's insanely high cold pressure. You had to be at 45 psi hot on the fronts.

    For reference, Michelin recommended hot pressure for the PSC2s is 30-38 psi. Assuming you have the guide pins pulled for more camber?

    I don't know if you want to keep your track tires somewhat streetable, but it may be worth going to a DOT slick or something similar. With our tiny sidewalls, you need all the stiffness you can get.
     
  7. Speed9117

    Speed9117 Senior Member

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    I'm not quite sure what you expected...

    >Buys performance tires for stock 20" wheels with no sidewall
    >Takes car to track and rag on it
    >Surprised when tires don't last???
    >Surprisedpikachu.jpg

    I am surprised that Micheline played ball at all. That's not on Tire Rack though. You bought performance tires from them and then used them on track. There is never any warranty on that case.

    As others have mentioned, if you want better performance and longevity at that track go with an 18" setup (or at least 19").
     
  8. willskiGT

    willskiGT Senior Member

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    The general consensus is (was) that the stock tires have very soft sidewalls and are not really designed for the track, whereas MPSC2s are definitely designed for track duty. The Nurburgring lap time for the CTR was set on MPSC2s.

    I don't see the need to be a jackass - it's a useful data point (although I wish I would have known before I bought 3 sets of MPSC2s in the stock fitment).

    I think what we've learned is that even with a "stiffer sidewall" tire, a 30% aspect ratio tire is not enough sidewall.
     
  9. Z3papa

    Z3papa Senior Member

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    This x100. I've owned cars that were perfectly setup for very even tire wear at tracks (ie. -3.5 camber front via camber plates with AST DA coilovers), and I've owned two cars (E92 M3 ZCP and now the Type R) that can be taken to the track by without camber plates or some serious restraint, will eat front tires in a few 20-30 minute sessions. No matter how stiff the sidewall is, if a driver goes out and pushes it even to 9/10, the fronts will be roasted. My advice would be to either find some other less intensive consumable motorsports (ie autocross), or get plates or arms that allow more camber up front. As for Tirerack, they don't carry the warranty coverage beyond road hazard. They only thing they or Discount Tire can do is direct you to the manufacturer unless there is a blatant defect with the tire.
     
  10. Speed9117

    Speed9117 Senior Member

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    I think if anybody is being a jackass, it's OP, who is ripping on Tire Rack for something that is very clearly not Tire Rack's fault or responsibility.

    As you mentioned, this is a data point, but instead of acknowledge it or learn from it, OP is being a real "Karen" and just complaining until somebody (in this case, Michelin) decided it was easier to just warranty the tire than deal with any more upset phone calls.
     
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  11. OP
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    djhartm

    djhartm Senior Member

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    Yup. On my Z06, I aim for 34 - 36 hot.

    With those pressures, the Cup 2 fronts roll too far down the sidewall on the Type-R. The Contis needed even more PSI.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    djhartm

    djhartm Senior Member

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    #12 djhartm, Nov 12, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
    To those saying 30 profile tires shouldnt last on track, you're dead wrong.

    I've been instructing PCA, BMW, Audi, Chin, TrackDaze, etc. for years and have thousands of laps on Cup 2's. Tire delamination is a known issue on these tires, and never did I have one chunk on the outer edge, as it did on the Type-R.

    The Cup 2 is Michelin's DOT track tire, essentially a R-Comp, so damn right I'm going to hold them.accountable for a failure after 1.5 events.

    The fact that Tire Rack did absolutely nothing, and I had to rely on my local installer for help speaks volumes about their customer service.

    And while extra camber plates or links will help, with the right pressure, even the Contis can hold up without chunking. My second set had 6 weekends driving at instructor run group pace.

    The Michelins failed. Simple as that, and Michelin did the right thing.

    Long-term, 18" wheels are the effective solution for those that heavily track this car.
     
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  13. Gansan

    Gansan Senior Member

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    #13 Gansan, Nov 12, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
    I feel the need to point out that it's not necessarily the sidewall height that is causing the problem. Many if not most people who are running smaller wheels are also running 265 wide tires. That's a decent amount more rubber to deal with the heat than 245 and would provide better longevity on track just because of the width. When we hear reports of how 18" wheels work great, we are looking at two variables that have changed, width and sidewall height. Before we can conclude more sidewall is all you need, we would need to get some data (ideally djhartm to keep the same driving style) with the same width tire but higher sidewall. i.e. 245/40-18.
     
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  14. OP
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    djhartm

    djhartm Senior Member

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    #14 djhartm, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
    Good points. However I don't think temps are the culprit. NASA Mid-Atlantic & TrackDaze were October/November events on fresh Cup 2's, in ambient temps ranging from the 40's to 60's. I instructed 8 previous events at VIR since mid-May, with ambients as high as upper-90's.

    I found out early the front tires needed significantly more PSI than what Honda suggested to prevent excessive rollover. The trade-off was grip. Even the Cup 2's rolled excessively with 35 PSI cold. I'm aggressive on curbing, which probably doesn't help. :)

    I do feel this car needs more front-end grip, and the 265's are probably the answer.

    There was an interesting article I found from Road & Track stating that 18" wheels with the standard 40-ish offset could hurt the car's handling.

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...5683452/smaller-lighter-wheels-hurt-handling/

    I proposed to my GF while instructing at VIR last Thursday.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4l3469k52t1ht5q/Proposal-Short.mp4?dl=0

    The track season here is pretty much over.
     
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  15. Gansan

    Gansan Senior Member

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    #15 Gansan, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
    Separate from the durability issue, I would be interested in hearing your subjective impressions of the PSC2 tires. How's the grip, the breakaway characteristics, the general feel, particularly in comparison to stock? Do they fade as easily?

    Congratulations dude!!!
     
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