The Oil Thread

[Slickone]

That's true, and they have never used a proprietary blend. But molybdenum is reported to aid in seating of the rings and suspension of particulates from the assembly process. It's used in very specific amounts during assembly and mixes with the factory fill upon first startup. And I'm willing to bet it will continue to show up on any UOA on the factory fill. This is why Honda wants their motors to run through their first full cycle prior to changing out the moly-rich oil.

Yes. That's mostly what was stated in the thread I linked from what I remember.
But whether the actual oil fill is any different is a mystery. Maybe you'll find out.

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[Design]

So feedback from a couple master techs is that it's best to keep the factory fill for the full cycle. For the snap ring issue, they claim that Honda instructs them to drain and re-add the factory fill. Or replace with fresh 0W-20 if there's evidence that it's already been changed. No word from Marysville yet.

 

[josby]

Above is my UOA (click for full size) from after my first oil change at 9069 miles. My Maintenance Minder was showing "125 miles overdue" (i.e. 125 miles past 0%), so I mentioned that in my notes to Blackstone Labs and paid the extra $10 for TBN analysis since I was curious how much life was really left in the oil. Looks like it was fine.

 

[Design]

Most have been reporting that the maintenance minder errs on the side of caution. Good to see that reflected in your UOA as well. I agree with their assessment that wear particles should improve over the next oil change (or two).

Thanks for sharing.

 

[kirkhilles]

I'd be interested to see analysis (although I'm sure there are many, many results out there online) of conventional oil (or at least the semi-synthetic) vs something like Mobil 1 vs Amsoil. I'd bet that even after 100k+ of regular oil changes that there wouldn't be much significant difference.

 

[josby]

I'd be interested to see analysis (although I'm sure there are many, many results out there online) of conventional oil (or at least the semi-synthetic) vs something like Mobil 1 vs Amsoil. I'd bet that even after 100k+ of regular oil changes that there wouldn't be much significant difference.

Anecdotally, there is one - the FAQ at Blackstone Labs says "We here at Blackstone generally use regular petroleum-based oil because honestly, it works just as well for us." I assume their decision is based on all the analysis they do, so that seems like a pretty good study even if it's not a scientific double-blind one or anything. I put Mobil 1 in when I did my recent oil change, since I didn't have my UOA results yet, but based on my results I think I'll probably do regular oil next time.

 

[Design]

The reality is that most mainstream dino oils perform very close to the level of synthetic. Because in fact they are produced to much higher standards than 20 years ago.

The main difference is going to be detergent content and stability at extreme operating temps. In Direct Injection, that's potentially a big difference due to the placement of the injectors. As oil gets recirculated through the PCV, deposits can attach to the intake runners and valves over time (and potentially the oil control rings). An issue that many not manifest itself until well beyond 100K.

Whether we believe this is an issue on Honda remains to be seen. We simply need more high mileage UOAs. But most agree that a quality synthetic - something that costs 30-50% over dino - is cheap insurance. Personally I think these motors will hold up fine to just about anything we can throw at them.

 

[Lunar]

Gonna go with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. Extra $10 once a year won't kill my wallet for one of the the best oils available. Been using Mobil 1 in the past but the Pen Ultra seems to be a cut above the rest from what I've been reading.

 

[Slickone]

Gonna go with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum. Extra $10 once a year won't kill my wallet for one of the the best oils available. Been using Mobil 1 in the past but the Pen Ultra seems to be a cut above the rest from what I've been reading.

I think Amazon has the Ultra for ~$25 (5qt jug) after rebate. Still better than M1.

 

[Design]

I'd like to see a UOA (on this car) comparing M1 to PP. Mobile has historically developed their oils around Honda's evolving standards. Not suggesting it's better; just curious how different it is.

 

[planedoc]

So feedback from a couple master techs is that it's best to keep the factory fill for the full cycle. For the snap ring issue, they claim that Honda instructs them to drain and re-add the factory fill. Or replace with fresh 0W-20 if there's evidence that it's already been changed. No word from Marysville yet.

Ok, that is never going to happen in my engine. Not keeping the break-in oil in there for 9000 miles.
More like 900 miles. But if there is some special oil required for break-in, I guess I better stock up on some of that. Anyone know what it's called? And is it available at the Honda dealer parts counter?

 

[JS2000]

Ok, that is never going to happen in my engine. Not keeping the break-in oil in there for 9000 miles.
More like 900 miles. But if there is some special oil required for break-in, I guess I better stock up on some of that. Anyone know what it's called? And is it available at the Honda dealer parts counter?

It's just a high moly content oil, on the order of 500+ ppms, I don't think it is an actual oil but more of an additive to a conventional oil at the factory. You will never find it as an actual oil you can purchase from Honda. A couple years back Honda was releasing a 20 weight bottled over the counter oil that had high levels of moly on the order of 200 ppms, and most felt that the moly was extra protection for the thinner oil film thickness. That formula kind of fizzled away though and we don't see those levels of moly in current Honda 20 weight bottled oil. They say that Mazda 20 weight oil is now one of the higher moly content oils being sold by auto makers.

One reason I like to run Red Line oil in my other Honda is the high moly count with 600 ppms approx. in a group 5 base oil, Motul has somewhat of a similar formula. Not that I'm pushing any particular oil but I am a bit moly nut and I like to find/run oils with high moly count. Amsoil has been increasing moly in their signature series oils within the last couple years, before that they almost never used moly additives in their oil but I like that they have moved towards moly in recent times. Their 20 weight oil has a decent moly level.

 

[NorthernEX-T]

In a nutshell what is the benefit of high moly?

 

[planedoc]

In a nutshell what is the benefit of high moly?

It is an anti-wear additive. Which I don't understand for new engine break in? When I assemble engines, I put moly lube on the camshaft to assure adequate lube during the first seconds after first start. Which is critical.
But this seems to me to be the opposite of what you want for piston ring / cylinder wall break-in. You WANT those to wear while the cylinder wall is still rough enough after honing to seat those rings. Piston ring sealing is the most important part of break-in in my mind. If you get a really good ring seat. It helps everything! If the rings seal, then you not only get better power and mileage because the compression is better, but the engine lasts much longer because combustion products are not leaking past them, which burns the oil film off the cylinder walls. Then lets acidic / corrosive compounds created by combustion into the oil. Which then attacks everything inside the engine.

 

[josby]

lets acidic / corrosive compounds created by combustion into the oil.

Isn't the fact that my TBN number was fine at 9K miles evidence that what Honda's doing DOES result in a ring seating that adequately keeps acidic compounds out of the oil?

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