The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch

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Kevin S.

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sorry but this is flat out a garbage response. Honda has a problem with this trans - shifting hard from 1st to 2nd - my car grinds every time. Confirmed with service advisor driving and tech driving. Both of them said currently honda has no tsb or fix out. They wanted to change the fluid with amsoil and add a "weighted shift knob". I promptly left the dealership after this since i couldn't believe the factory honda master tech could not offer any other help (unfortunately).

What i'm saying here is that it's not "user error" it's a mechanical issue that honda needs to fix. From what i've heard it might be the faulty clutch master cylinder. Common issue on other honda's going back over 10 yrs now...pretty lame if that is still the issue.
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Typer94

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sorry but this is flat out a garbage response. Honda has a problem with this trans - shifting hard from 1st to 2nd - my car grinds every time. Confirmed with service advisor driving and tech driving. Both of them said currently honda has no tsb or fix out. They wanted to change the fluid with amsoil and add a "weighted shift knob". I promptly left the dealership after this since i couldn't believe the factory honda master tech could not offer any other help (unfortunately).

What i'm saying here is that it's not "user error" it's a mechanical issue that honda needs to fix. From what i've heard it might be the faulty clutch master cylinder. Common issue on other honda's going back over 10 yrs now...pretty lame if that is still the issue.
Exactly. I honestly get fustrated when I read “ driver error” I’ve been driving a manual my whole life.. never drove an automatic aside from my job vehicles in a matter of fact.. and I’ve never had a grind issue or anything else in any vehicle other than this. The people that say that are flat out lucky their car isn’t doing it. If I push my clutch to the ground.. and I put it in the next gear. That’s not driver error.
 

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Exactly. I honestly get fustrated when I read “ driver error” I’ve been driving a manual my whole life.. never drove an automatic aside from my job vehicles in a matter of fact.. and I’ve never had a grind issue or anything else in any vehicle other than this. The people that say that are flat out lucky their car isn’t doing it. If I push my clutch to the ground.. and I put it in the next gear. That’s not driver error.
Anyone that says driver error has no experience with this exact same issue in 06-11 Civic Si's or 02-06 RSX's, which are basically the same transmission, linkage, and hydraulic setup.

Honda warrantied, recalled or TSB'd [whatever the hell they called it at the time] those transmissions for 2nd or 3rd gear. I remember having my synchros replaced at 30-35K miles for being notchy/grindy.

This is a design flaw in K series transmissions they never solved. They just threw parts at it until warranty ran out or the problem stopped.

K series manual transmissions are known for being "made of glass" in the racing crowd.

I have a strong suspicion that it has something to do with deflection of the cable linkage or the shift change assembly. I think when you shift these hard/fast the cables or assembly twist or torque in a way that causes the internal selector to bind or something along those lines.
 

SHIFTT_IX_MR

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Anyone that says driver error has no experience with this exact same issue in 06-11 Civic Si's or 02-06 RSX's, which are basically the same transmission, linkage, and hydraulic setup.

Honda warrantied, recalled or TSB'd [whatever the hell they called it at the time] those transmissions for 2nd or 3rd gear. I remember having my synchros replaced at 30-35K miles for being notchy/grindy.

This is a design flaw in K series transmissions they never solved. They just threw parts at it until warranty ran out or the problem stopped.

K series manual transmissions are known for being "made of glass" in the racing crowd.

I have a strong suspicion that it has something to do with deflection of the cable linkage or the shift change assembly. I think when you shift these hard/fast the cables or assembly twist or torque in a way that causes the internal selector to bind or something along those lines.
I agree. My 2002 RSX Type S trans was in essence a glass trans. But still, I contend user error because no one has made mention to the fact that when you run a clutch in, after 500 miles you have to readjust the clutch pedal to ensure you do not have clutch drag which will cause grinding of the gears. I reach 1K miles, and adjusted my clutch pedal for additional throw. It's a common techniquie for maintaining any new clutch. Just like add new coils or coilvers to a car, once the car is settled you should have it realigned to make up for the change in the settling.

ANYONE ADJUST THEIR CLUTCH PEDEAL AT ALL? SERIOUSLY ADD MORE THROW, I BET THE GRINDING FADES OR GOES AWAY COMPLETELY. and if you ground the gears, you should change the fluid each time, unless you want some metallic pieces floating around in the trans.
 

SHIFTT_IX_MR

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Exactly. I honestly get fustrated when I read “ driver error” I’ve been driving a manual my whole life.. never drove an automatic aside from my job vehicles in a matter of fact.. and I’ve never had a grind issue or anything else in any vehicle other than this. The people that say that are flat out lucky their car isn’t doing it. If I push my clutch to the ground.. and I put it in the next gear. That’s not driver error.
Like I said, and if you have to defend it fine, you're grinding gears for two reasons: Trans is bad, and if so Honda will replace, trans is not bad = driver error.
Think on a track anyone is gonna take you seriously when you say you lost a race due to "Honda's glass trans"? Nope. They'll just say upgrade, fix, replace.

Man up for heavens sake like most of us who do race, pull the trans yourself, you obviously know what's wrong with it, so get to work, or do as I do and pay someone to build you a car that works. As a CPA I couldn't nor was I going to build the drivetrain in my EVO, contacted SHEP got all my worries taken care of, and guess what, I am happy.

Next point: It's a Type R. Did you really expect a flawless product from honda when no car manufacturer can produce a car free of defects? I mean jesus Christ my type R makes a slicing noise at full lock when turning right, do I care? no, everything still works. When it breaks do I care? No because everything is fixable, and life goes on. Get over the fact you have a car that either can't shift and or that you can't shift properly, and move on to something that makes you happy. I can not imagine that you are enjoying this; that is driving a car that you believe is inherently flawed - in whatever area you decide to talk about today.

then again I also believe most people who bitch about cars, do so with every car they've owned. This is not uncommon and I understand it. my 2018 GLS63 AMG was my last benz because I could no longer bring the car back month after month for warranty work - sold it for a Denali fully loaded with brembos so i had something to transport the dogs in, and guess what, nearly a year later i haven't been to warranty department. Better yet, i am happier. I paid less for a car that doesn't f up, so I understand your need or desire to vent, but get over it, make yourself happy, get in something you will enjoy more even if it's not a type r or a fast car. In that same sentence if you enjoy bitching, then keep it up.


Now back to my original statement on the cause of this bs - BLOWN TRANS OR USER ERROR. which is it?
 


aytaka

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82 pages of posts. I want to know, anyone lurking in this thread that hasn't had a gear grind? As in you haven't done anything special and experienced no grind since you got the car?
 

heavyD

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Like I said, and if you have to defend it fine, you're grinding gears for two reasons: Trans is bad, and if so Honda will replace, trans is not bad = driver error.
Think on a track anyone is gonna take you seriously when you say you lost a race due to "Honda's glass trans"? Nope. They'll just say upgrade, fix, replace.

Man up for heavens sake like most of us who do race, pull the trans yourself, you obviously know what's wrong with it, so get to work, or do as I do and pay someone to build you a car that works. As a CPA I couldn't nor was I going to build the drivetrain in my EVO, contacted SHEP got all my worries taken care of, and guess what, I am happy.

Next point: It's a Type R. Did you really expect a flawless product from honda when no car manufacturer can produce a car free of defects? I mean jesus Christ my type R makes a slicing noise at full lock when turning right, do I care? no, everything still works. When it breaks do I care? No because everything is fixable, and life goes on. Get over the fact you have a car that either can't shift and or that you can't shift properly, and move on to something that makes you happy. I can not imagine that you are enjoying this; that is driving a car that you believe is inherently flawed - in whatever area you decide to talk about today.

then again I also believe most people who bitch about cars, do so with every car they've owned. This is not uncommon and I understand it. my 2018 GLS63 AMG was my last benz because I could no longer bring the car back month after month for warranty work - sold it for a Denali fully loaded with brembos so i had something to transport the dogs in, and guess what, nearly a year later i haven't been to warranty department. Better yet, i am happier. I paid less for a car that doesn't f up, so I understand your need or desire to vent, but get over it, make yourself happy, get in something you will enjoy more even if it's not a type r or a fast car. In that same sentence if you enjoy bitching, then keep it up.


Now back to my original statement on the cause of this bs - BLOWN TRANS OR USER ERROR. which is it?
Well it's pretty obvious there's an issue with the transmission design so that's your answer. Let's be honest here that Honda's aren't exactly the most reliable cars out there as this isn't the 90's anymore and their cars have had below average reliability (their three year reliability is no better than Ford as per link below) for some time. The fact of the matter is that plenty of auto manufacturers can offer manual transmissions that don't grind. Is Honda the only manufacturer that's put out a bad transmission? Of course not but but plenty manufacturers can and have put out quality manual transmissions.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-us-vehicle-dependability-studyvds
 

PepsiJoe

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Like I said, and if you have to defend it fine, you're grinding gears for two reasons: Trans is bad, and if so Honda will replace, trans is not bad = driver error.
Think on a track anyone is gonna take you seriously when you say you lost a race due to "Honda's glass trans"? Nope. They'll just say upgrade, fix, replace.

Man up for heavens sake like most of us who do race, pull the trans yourself, you obviously know what's wrong with it, so get to work, or do as I do and pay someone to build you a car that works. As a CPA I couldn't nor was I going to build the drivetrain in my EVO, contacted SHEP got all my worries taken care of, and guess what, I am happy.

Next point: It's a Type R. Did you really expect a flawless product from honda when no car manufacturer can produce a car free of defects? I mean jesus Christ my type R makes a slicing noise at full lock when turning right, do I care? no, everything still works. When it breaks do I care? No because everything is fixable, and life goes on. Get over the fact you have a car that either can't shift and or that you can't shift properly, and move on to something that makes you happy. I can not imagine that you are enjoying this; that is driving a car that you believe is inherently flawed - in whatever area you decide to talk about today.

then again I also believe most people who bitch about cars, do so with every car they've owned. This is not uncommon and I understand it. my 2018 GLS63 AMG was my last benz because I could no longer bring the car back month after month for warranty work - sold it for a Denali fully loaded with brembos so i had something to transport the dogs in, and guess what, nearly a year later i haven't been to warranty department. Better yet, i am happier. I paid less for a car that doesn't f up, so I understand your need or desire to vent, but get over it, make yourself happy, get in something you will enjoy more even if it's not a type r or a fast car. In that same sentence if you enjoy bitching, then keep it up.


Now back to my original statement on the cause of this bs - BLOWN TRANS OR USER ERROR. which is it?
Setting your arrogance aside, I’ll just point out the ignorance in saying people should be expected to fix or replace a transmission right off the bat after paying over $35k for a brand new car. Please educate us more on your brilliant business and marketing prowess...
 

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Like I said, and if you have to defend it fine, you're grinding gears for two reasons: Trans is bad, and if so Honda will replace, trans is not bad = driver error.
Think on a track anyone is gonna take you seriously when you say you lost a race due to "Honda's glass trans"? Nope. They'll just say upgrade, fix, replace.

Man up for heavens sake like most of us who do race, pull the trans yourself, you obviously know what's wrong with it, so get to work, or do as I do and pay someone to build you a car that works. As a CPA I couldn't nor was I going to build the drivetrain in my EVO, contacted SHEP got all my worries taken care of, and guess what, I am happy.

Next point: It's a Type R. Did you really expect a flawless product from honda when no car manufacturer can produce a car free of defects? I mean jesus Christ my type R makes a slicing noise at full lock when turning right, do I care? no, everything still works. When it breaks do I care? No because everything is fixable, and life goes on. Get over the fact you have a car that either can't shift and or that you can't shift properly, and move on to something that makes you happy. I can not imagine that you are enjoying this; that is driving a car that you believe is inherently flawed - in whatever area you decide to talk about today.

then again I also believe most people who bitch about cars, do so with every car they've owned. This is not uncommon and I understand it. my 2018 GLS63 AMG was my last benz because I could no longer bring the car back month after month for warranty work - sold it for a Denali fully loaded with brembos so i had something to transport the dogs in, and guess what, nearly a year later i haven't been to warranty department. Better yet, i am happier. I paid less for a car that doesn't f up, so I understand your need or desire to vent, but get over it, make yourself happy, get in something you will enjoy more even if it's not a type r or a fast car. In that same sentence if you enjoy bitching, then keep it up.


Now back to my original statement on the cause of this bs - BLOWN TRANS OR USER ERROR. which is it?
The problem here is that it's intermittent and Honda basically acts like they've never heard of it when you report it.

I personally don't expect a perfect car, I do expect that they will honor their warranty and solve the problems as they arise.

That's not an unreasonable expectation.

Additionally, when a person says "Hey, I have the problem too" and some yahoo tells you to learn how to drive, it's irritating.

When I pull mine out of storage for the summer, I will have the clutch adjusted to be sure that's not the issue.

I build most of my own shit. I can do and do these things all the time. I bought an R because it's a special thing to me, forbidden fruit, if you will. I leave it alone and have the work done at Honda because it is a special thing to me, not to mention, that's what a warranty is for.

When they refuse to even try anything to address the issue or act like they've never heard about it, that's irritating.

Oh ... and since professions seem to matter ...

As a SOFTWARE DEVELOPER I automate your job out of existence.
 

FriscoBrah

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Random, incessant bitching to dealers or on here will do nothing. Here's my thought.

How many people started driving the car spirited versus those that have babied it via break in? If there was a systemic issue it would've been reported in the press cars and/or in reviews right? By most accounts the tranny has had positive press.

From my 13XX mile owner experience that started in December I have a few observations.

1. As with all Honda's I've owned it's a bit notchy until well warmed up. It feels no different from my previous Honda ownerships.
2. A more precise shift is more fluid. By this I mean if theres an angle outside of a 180 movement or front to back it can be felt, and it's notchy. (I'm having difficulties describing it, sorry...)
3. With more increased city driving it's become more smooth.

Here is my opinion being an analyst (not that it matters):
Everything in this thread is anecdotal or a one-off experience since it's an extremely limited amount of people. It might be beneficial to keep the following data in a spreadsheet to determine a rough defect rate on this forum.:

a. Did you break it in, and how did you break it in?
b. What is your build year and R badge #?
c. Misc. experiences or observations when the grinds are experienced.
d. If you adjust the clutch take pre and post adjustment measurements.

This will allow you to produce a percentage of forum members with defects, and if there is one the data will be there to prove it.

Example: If we identify the highest R build is #25000 is in the wild and there's 100 people in this thread with grinds it yields a 0.4% defect rate. All OEMs follow ISO standards requiring them to meet specific requirements for projected reliability and failure rates. The normalized data will identify if there's a problem.

Let's say the results are bad. I would then take the results and use social media to my advantage without an outrage mentality by include Jalopnik, Honda, Honda Jason Pro, et cetera in a reasonable manner with the intent of gaining traction.

Good luck.
 
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Noize

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82 pages of posts. I want to know, anyone lurking in this thread that hasn't had a gear grind? As in you haven't done anything special and experienced no grind since you got the car?
Not one second gear grind yet in 2k miles and almost 4 months. But I’d read about it and seen much regarding it pre-purchase, so I’ve probably done only 3-4 WOT pulls from first with a quick shift into second.

My workaround so it doesn’t happen is to wait to get on it until second gear. Not a big issue, since it doesn’t hook worth crap WOT from first gear anyway.
 

FriscoBrah

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Not one second gear grind yet in 2k miles and almost 4 months. But I’d read about it and seen much regarding it pre-purchase, so I’ve probably done only 3-4 WOT pulls from first with a quick shift into second.

My workaround so it doesn’t happen is to wait to get on it until second gear. Not a big issue, since it doesn’t hook worth crap WOT from first gear anyway.
No issues here.

In regard to traction I'm curious if people are modulating the throttle, staying 100%, or shifting while there's no traction and movement in the powertrain???

Lot's of variables...
 

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82 pages of posts and I know the solution is in here somewhere. Is it really the Master Clutch Cylinder?
 

tinyman392

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82 pages of posts and I know the solution is in here somewhere. Is it really the Master Clutch Cylinder?
We actually don’t know what the issue is. Could be the master cylinder, could be break in, could be driver error, could be trans fluid, could be some combination of the above. For me I think it was a mix of driver error and break in. Though my clutch pedal is beginning to click in warmer (50-ish degree) weather.
 

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Not one second gear grind yet in 2k miles and almost 4 months. But I’d read about it and seen much regarding it pre-purchase, so I’ve probably done only 3-4 WOT pulls from first with a quick shift into second.

My workaround so it doesn’t happen is to wait to get on it until second gear. Not a big issue, since it doesn’t hook worth crap WOT from first gear anyway.
That is good to hear, I too have been pretty careful with my 1-2 shifts. Only 400 miles or so in.

I do agree, this is not a drag car. 1-2 gears feel like a normal civic. I don't foresee myself needing to do full WOT 1-2 very often as 3rd gear is where you want to stay. I suppose if i took it to autocross, this becomes more relevant.
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