Safe Maximum WHP

Morales

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Greetings Team, I just wondering how much WHP I can get safetly using bolt on parts and without modify the engine. Some people told me 350, is that right?
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Morales

Morales

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It's more about safe torque levels than horsepower. PRL has their Civic right at 400whp and they have not blown it up yet. :)
In that case, How much torque is safe ? I don't want to open engine yet... :)
 

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Below 400 WHP & 400 WTQ is a safe territory, keep in mind, that amount is more at the crank.

Example: 380 whp *1.25 (Dyno losses)= 475 crank HP. Unless we tune for less TQ, we might be asking too much to a stock unit..
 
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Morales

Morales

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Below 400 WHP & 400 WTQ is a safe territory, keep in mind, that amount is more at the crank.

Example: 380 whp *1.25 (Dyno losses)= 475 crank HP. Unless we tune for less TQ, we might be asking too much to a stock unit..

Thanks for the explanation!!!
 


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25% is way too much drivetrain loss for a FWD car. Should be closer to 16-18%
 

Night Fury

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I thought so too, the Dyno's (Mustang - A.K.A: heartbreaker) operator told me, that is a realistic number, local conditions under consideration.
 

mmm def

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Also-just because you have a "safe" 350 wtq/whp..don't go WOT it at 1,500 in 6th gear kind of thing.
 

davemarco

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As a corollary to this, I'd be curious to know how much WHP/WTQ can actually be put down to the group effectively. Can a 500 WHP Type R actually use that much power, or would the wheels just spin?
 

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Based on reducing torque targets with KTuner in first and second gear to the limit of grip, here is what I've found:

1st can handle about 200 lb/ft without spinning, 2nd can handle about 300 lb/ft, 3rd can probably handle 400 lb/ft or so, but I rarely run into problems with traction in third.

My guess is that you would need to be in fourth or maybe fifth gear to put down 500 WHP without spinning. You are going to need quite a big race track to make that happen. You sure could save some seconds on the straights of the Nürburgring though haha

For most American tracks, I think 400-450WHP is about the sweet spot, with severely diminishing returns after that.

As a side note, I highly recommend anyone with KTuner to change their torque targets per gear to prevent wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear. It really makes the car feel faster to be able to floor it and go in any gear.
 


idragmazda

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Based on reducing torque targets with KTuner in first and second gear to the limit of grip, here is what I've found:

1st can handle about 200 lb/ft without spinning, 2nd can handle about 300 lb/ft, 3rd can probably handle 400 lb/ft or so, but I rarely run into problems with traction in third.

My guess is that you would need to be in fourth or maybe fifth gear to put down 500 WHP without spinning. You are going to need quite a big race track to make that happen. You sure could save some seconds on the straights of the Nürburgring though haha

For most American tracks, I think 400-450WHP is about the sweet spot, with severely diminishing returns after that.

As a side note, I highly recommend anyone with KTuner to change their torque targets per gear to prevent wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear. It really makes the car feel faster to be able to floor it and go in any gear.

Thanks for this. Are you using the reduced torque Stage 1 basemap provided by Ktuner or did you adjust the torque targets yourself (i.e. how did you come up with the 200 lb/ft number for 1st)?

Does 1st really feel that much faster with reduced torque? Is it a really obvious improvement in acceleration? May want to try this tonight! Thanks.
 

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It's safe until it isn't.

Then it's time for a new motor.

It's not some magic number, it's the combination of parts thoughtfully chosen to work with one another that make a motor safe.

You can make 400hp any number of ways: turn up the boost, change to cams with more overlap for more rpm, change components to cool your intake air charge, add nitrous.

The list goes on and on.

Any combination of those changes can get you to 400 hp, how reliable it will be depends on how well thought out and tuned your changes are.
 

remc86007

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Thanks for this. Are you using the reduced torque Stage 1 basemap provided by Ktuner or did you adjust the torque targets yourself (i.e. how did you come up with the 200 lb/ft number for 1st)?

Does 1st really feel that much faster with reduced torque? Is it a really obvious improvement in acceleration? May want to try this tonight! Thanks.
I started with the Multi-stage, then--because I'm crazy--found a couple dyno sheets of a 10th gen Civic SI and tried to replicate the torque curve as accurately as possible in the comfort mode (peaking at roughly 205HP and 205 TQ). By coincidence, my first time flooring it in first gear in comfort mode, I was shocked...it held perfectly and felt like a much faster car. I then went through and created my own maps through trial and error for sport mode and R mode for first and second gear to maximize the use of grip. My R mode is still stage 1 and sport mode is stage 0.

Being able to accelerate right at the limit of grip without trying to guess with your foot does make the car feel faster. You just floor it and go.

It's also really fun to be able to show people the performance difference between a stock SI and a type R.
 

VTECMatt

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From my experience much more than 350 uk horses, the whole fwd set up struggles in my opinion. Put it this way my front continental tyres have died in less than 3000 miles of road driving, the only mod I have is cat back exhaust.
I have never launched the car off the line, any track work, but I do live on the doorstep of some of the UK's finest roads. I find I constantly have to short shift from second and occasionally lose traction in 3rd gear. I tend to drive with the traction control off but understand enough that wheels spinning is not good for speed, so adjust accordingly.

I am some what surprised having watched the forums for the last 6 months it seems all about adding power, for me I think a more aggressive diff and shedding a few pounds is where this car needs improvement. Admittedly UK roads are somewhat different to those over in America and in general we do not get the same heat issues but food for thought.
 

idragmazda

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From my experience much more than 350 uk horses, the whole fwd set up struggles in my opinion. Put it this way my front continental tyres have died in less than 3000 miles of road driving, the only mod I have is cat back exhaust.
I have never launched the car off the line, any track work, but I do live on the doorstep of some of the UK's finest roads. I find I constantly have to short shift from second and occasionally lose traction in 3rd gear. I tend to drive with the traction control off but understand enough that wheels spinning is not good for speed, so adjust accordingly.

I am some what surprised having watched the forums for the last 6 months it seems all about adding power, for me I think a more aggressive diff and shedding a few pounds is where this car needs improvement. Admittedly UK roads are somewhat different to those over in America and in general we do not get the same heat issues but food for thought.
I'm just starting to come to the realization that I don't need 400whp as that will bring along so much torque. I thought more power would be better, but honestly my car currently has probably 330whp / 350wtq with the Stage 1 and in 1st and 2nd gear I'm spinning so often that it's just useless (i also have some crappy all season tires on there so that may be part of the problem).

Next spring the plan is focus more on putting the power down. Tires, lighter wheels, engine mounts, etc.
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