Public Service Announcement: Modding and Warranty

[amirza786]

Sandwiches.

Haha I think @JW0914 drank a little to much coffee. Now let me go get that double shot espresso.....

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[charleswrivers]

Haha I think @JW0914 drank a little to much coffee. Now let me go get that double shot espresso.....

I going to err on the side that @JW0914 is trying to make people understand that they have rights... and that should can (should) read and understand their manual and read the content of the law so they are armed with knowledge to defend their rights.

(shrug) I did so and I generally think you're warranty is null on your powertrain if I alter the ECU software to make the powertrain operate in a way other than how it left the factory... within reason. That's my interpretation as the consumer... and a risk of having to cover repair out of warranty. Knowing I can cover this cost... it led to me deciding to modify anyways.

I've always advised folks if they *need* their warranty to cover them to not financially wreck them... or for their own piece of mind... modifying is *not* a good idea. That's based on my totally fallible interpretation of the written word and what I think is simply reasonable... words or not. If I think my actions screwed up something, I'd not look to others to take responsibility for my actions... and that includes the monetary cost.

But... I do think @JW0914 's heart is in the right place. (shrug) If someone tells me I'm ignorant of something and I should read... I tend to try and correct my ignorance. I'd looked at MM last 6-12 months ago before today. Now that I have done so again... I find my feelings from my interpretation on the matter completely unchanged.

 

[amirza786]

I going to err on the side that @JW0914 is trying to make people understand that they have rights... and that should can (should) read and understand their manual and read the content of the law so they are armed with knowledge to defend their rights.

(shrug) I did so and I generally think you're warranty is null on your powertrain if I alter the ECU software to make the powertrain operate in a way other than how it left the factory... within reason. That's my interpretation as the consumer... and a risk of having to cover repair out of warranty. Knowing I can cover this cost... it led to me deciding to modify anyways.

I've always advised folks if they *need* their warranty to cover them to not financially wreck them... or for their own piece of mind... modifying is *not* a good idea. That's based on my totally fallible interpretation of the written word and what I think is simply reasonable... words or not. If I think my actions screwed up something, I'd not look to others to take responsibility for my actions... and that includes the monetary cost.

But... I do think @JW0914 's heart is in the right place. (shrug) If someone tells me I'm ignorant of something and I should read... I tend to try and correct my ignorance. I'd looked at MM last 6-12 months ago before today. Now that I have done so again... I find my feelings from my interpretation on the matter completely unchanged.

I agree with you on that point, I'm just wondering what set him off on me. I never advocated one way or the other nor did I even give an opinion other than "they may fix it or they may not"

 

[charleswrivers]

I agree with you on that point, I'm just wondering what set him off on me. I never advocated one way or the other nor did I even give an opinion other than "they may fix it or they may not"

I'm 83% sure that his statement was directed at me... not you. Then again... 17% of me is pretty sure I don't know what I'm talking about in this thread at all so...

When law is concerned, I'll read it and interpret it as best I can. Without higher education on the subject, experience and the knowledge of legal precedence from previous rulings, there's a pretty good margin for error.

 

[gtman]

What does all this have to do with ecu flashing/tuning?

I agree and that's what I attempted to convey in a number of my posts. We can get into a deep discussion regarding the minutiae of the M-M act, ad nauseum. The thing is, if you're tuned, all bets are off because you are essentially modifying many aspects of the factory engine operation. Wave the M-M flag all you want (to the dealer or Honda) but I'm pretty sure most will be denied a warranty repair with a major engine failure while tuned.

 

[Andre80]

It's a classic case of the little guy trying to stand their ground against the large corporation (or usually government body). haha. It's not about Johnny's modification didn't cause the damage just because Davie's did... It's a blanket policy to protect the corporation from being exploited by irresponsible car owners.

If you were Honda, you wouldn't warranty it either. Don't even attempt to lie.

I don't need to lie, I consider myself an honest person

 

[cruisencode]

I agree and that's what I attempted to convey in a number of my posts. We can get into a deep discussion regarding the minutiae of the M-M act, ad nauseum. The thing is, if you're tuned, all bets are off because you are essentially modifying many aspects of the factory engine operation. Wave the M-M flag all you want (to the dealer or Honda) but I'm pretty sure most will be denied a warranty repair with a major engine failure while tuned.

I think the distinction to make here is the difference between "we're not going to cover your blown engine due to you being tuned" and "your powertrain warranty is now void because you once loaded a tune". The former is expected, IMHO, the latter may not be legal in the light of the M-M act.

 

[Andre80]

If a tuner shop isn't willing to warranty it, read between the lines..

is in the game.
the tuner cannot know the car condition

 

[JW0914]

I'm curious why you are referencing me. I neither defended the law nor stated anything against it (or even reference it!!).

You did reference the MMWA, which is what I quoted in my reply​

@JW0914...I'm familiar with MM... if I use a calibration in the ECU that not from the manufacturer causing the engine to develop ~1/2 again the torque it was delivered from the factory and it throws a rod... I wouldn't entertain Honda's limited powertrain warranty providing coverage to that engine

I don't understand the purpose of your post or the time you put into it as I've stated 2x now that Honda's warranty does not stipulate modifying a vehcile voids a warranty (that's illegal under the MMWA), but should such a modification cause damage, that damage would not be covered, but again, damage would have to have occurred that Honda can irrecovably show was a result of the modification (it's not beyond a reasonable doubt, or I believe, or my educated opinion... the MMWA states quite clearly a direct correlation must be proven and the burden of proof is on the manufacturer, NOT the consumer).

• In other words, flashing an ECU back to stock cannot irrevocably show, under any stretch of the imaginination, damage occurred... it simply shows the ECU was flashed back to stock (Occam's Razor)
  • It's worth noting here that it's due to the spread of misinformation on forums and Facebook groups like this that owners feel they should flash back to stock when taking their vehicle into a dealership, because forums and groups have made them believe the factual inaccuracy that they risk having warranty coverage issues. Leave the damn ECUs flashed with the custom tune...
    Just an FYI, there are no logs or data kept about the transmission gear shifts on the ECU. Anyone can verify this with a DST-i and a subscription to HDS.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink...​

To me, modifications falls under:

15USC2302(a)(6)... as an allowance of... 15USC2304(a)(3)...

Seems like, "The warranties in this booklet do not cover: Any failure caused by modifying the vehicle, or installing accessories not authorized by Honda." is conspicuously posted in the warranty booklet from my Civic.

I don't get where the misunderstanding is coming from... this refers to a FAILURE... It appears you're not even bothering to read the content of posts you're replying to, as you seem to be under the illogical conclusion a modification causes failures whenever such modification is done.

Best of luck, as I've tried to be patient in explaining this and it's the second time you've replied to my posts where it's patently obvious you're not reading, or are misreading, them. Seriously bro...​

 

[Andre80]

One thing bothers me, all the good guys do, but everyone in the event of an engine or component break would try to pass it under warranty

whoever says otherwise is a liar

 

[MoTeC R]

Ask your dealer before modding. My dealer will back all modding as far as tuning, breaking an axel etc heavy hard abuse would never be a warranty item though. If a normal issue outside of abuse they say I'm all good straight from the parts and service director that drives the dealerships civic race car for their racing team.

 

[JW0914]

One thing bothers me, all the good guys do, but everyone in the event of an engine or component break would try to pass it under warranty

Quite true, and even if a manufacturer is made aware a customer caused the issue, they're still more likely than not to cover it if the customer is polite about it.

Just for context, this isn't a loss for the manufacturer... they're not losing a dime by warrantying a product with damage caused by a customer or if it's out of warranty. At worst, they'll get a tax write-off for the wholesale cost (i.e. their cost) and cost to replace [labor], at best they'll make a profit by getting a tax write-off and keeping the damaged part for recycling or refurbishment.

 

[gtman]

even if a manufacturer is made aware a customer caused the issue, they're still more likely than not to cover it if the customer is polite about it.

That's certainly eye opening.

"Hey Honda, I know the failure was caused by my constant two stepping and aftermarket ecu tune where I upped the boost to 30psi, but you guys know how honest and polite I am so thank you for giving me that new engine under warranty. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you."

Tune away folks with no warranty worries at all. Don't worry. Be happy. And polite.

 

[fenix-silver]

Something to consider is that companies like Honda and Subaru who really have strong enthusiast communities certainly don't want to drive away loyal customers. There is no doubt in my mind that if they wanted to lock the ECU so that it couldn't be reflashed outside of a dealership, they could do so in a heartbeat. Obviously they have to find a balance between covering any damage caused by modding/tuning/etc and not covering anything at all. With the former, they'll certainly have happy enthusiasts, but they'll go broke fixing all the stupid crap people do to their cars. With the latter, people will either find other platforms or just give up and buy a Chevy Trax. And an enthusiast tuning his Si today with a good experience very may well turn into an Accord or Pilot owner in the future. And maybe I'm totally wrong too!

 

[Andre80]

if they block the ecu, the tuners will find a way to unlock them, we have already seen it with bmw and others


there will always be dealers that turn a blind eye and others completely against it, there are a lot of dealers that offer the new car tune

in Europe with small engines many offer the new car tune


it is up to the tuner or creator of the software to find a way not to make the dealer recognize the flash

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