Public Service Announcement: Modding and Warranty

amirza786

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So.. What if that's not who you think it is? Just asking, since their profile appears to now be deleted. ;)
That was him 100 percent. Same writing style, same trolling attitude. The admin deleted him because they knew who he was
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Design

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Unless Honda made a change to the electronics for manual transmissions, PCM stores zero transmission data​
I stopped reading here because I can see you're more concerned with semantics than big picture. Though if you have the time, resources and heart to stand up to Goliath, more power to you Mr. David. :D

It's a classic case of the little guy trying to stand their ground against the large corporation (or usually government body). haha. It's not about Johnny's modification didn't cause the damage just because Davie's did... It's a blanket policy
Quoted for emphasis.
 

charleswrivers

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Read the whole thread.

Pretty sure what I got from it was modding equals warranty might be toast.

Makes sense to me! Only 1 more year for my bumper to bumper to be gone and 3 for my powertrain that I’ll not be able to use anyways while I burn the candle at both ends on this new car which is a stupid, stupid idea if reliability is the main concern. It isn’t... but fingers crossed an extra ~50 whp and ~75 ft/lbs doesn’t make it go pop.

Maybe someday I can make a nerfed tune with 10# peak boost targets and a top speed of 80 mph and let her go gently into her old age as a kids first car. Pat her flaking clearcoat and say
Honda Civic 10th gen Public Service Announcement: Modding and Warranty 231CC779-E1D6-4901-BF49-E4F963EAAF0F

Or... maybe it’ll end up on the side of the road with a hole in the block.
Honda Civic 10th gen Public Service Announcement: Modding and Warranty B6E38BB3-B291-4F66-BB83-DDC0BF731A62
I really hope no one who actually relies on their warranty to be in place because they can’t afford repairs is tuning their new/newish car. That’s what old cheap cars are for. Played that game about 20 years before I got this thing and decided... the hell with it. I can cover it if it goes south. I don’t regret it one bit unless it goes badly for me... and if it does, will I regret it? Maybe... but I can afford the repair. I think that’s a fundamental thing folks have to able to answer for themselves and do what’s best for themselves... sometimes taking care of needs means you don’t get what you want.
 

djhartm

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I met with an American Honda Area Rep when I was pushing back on warranty issues with my 2019 CTR.

He said they can easily tell if the OEM ECU has been modded or swapped, and it is one of the first things they check for powertrain issues.

To the people arguing 'well Honda has to prove the mod caused the issue'. Perhaps, but how many are going to spend thousands to lawyer up after the dealer is instructed to inform the customer that most of their warranty is now invalid?

I've had it happen to me on a different Honda vehicle, and I had to spend thousands to retain counsel. Yes, my situation was resolved amicably (Honda replaced the vehicle), but they could just as easily have made my life an expensive legal nightmare.
 

JW0914

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Also to your point, I think it refers to OEM equivalent replacement parts
Ignorance is bliss... the law doesn't care whether you agree with it or not or what one thinks of it. It's due to this ideology that misinformation regarding warranties reigns supreme on forums. You may want to take the time to reference the PDF linked to, visiting the FTC page linked to within it.

I don't have the time or patience to argue with people online about their uneducated opinions about the law... you're welcome to have whatever opinions you wish to have, but if you'd like to educate yourself with the facts, please see the previously linked to PDF and feel free to fact check it.

I'm not your mother... you have the choice to educate yourself or not to, I couldn't care less either way. Best of luck =]
 
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charleswrivers

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Since we'd like to speak to laws and contracts... I'll just point out a statement Honda makes in our warranty booklets... under general warranty provisions that covers all the warranties, including our limited powertrain warranty:

The warranties in this booklet do not cover:
Any failure caused by modifying the vehicle, or installing accessories not authorized by Honda.

Just figured I'd throw that out there... as it's been there the whole time. :thumbsup:
 

JW0914

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A couple of points on Magnusson-Moss.

It originally was intended to...
Have you actually read the law (or the warranty terms for that matter), or referenced the one page PDF I created to simplify the understanding of this?

Everyone that attempts to speak to this has blatantly never actually read the law or their warranty; the latter of which is really perplexing, as how can one say such and such voids a warranty when they've never even read the warranty?

This isn't some obscure law... the FTC reaffirmed it within the last 2 years. Seriously people...​

Pretty sure what I got from it was modding equals warranty might be toast...
Common sense: Who to trust - random people on a forum or what your warranty and the law states? Come on now people...​

...To the people arguing 'well Honda has to prove the mod caused the issue'. Perhaps, but how many are going to spend thousands to lawyer up after the dealer is instructed to inform the customer that most of their warranty is now invalid?
Common sense: Why exactly would one hire a lawyer in lieu of directly contacting Honda's legal department and filing a complaint with their state's D.o.I?
(manufacturers must respond within 30 days by law, as the D.o.I is the governing body that regulates warranties and insurance)

Since we'd like to speak to laws and contracts... I'll just point out a statement Honda makes in our warranty booklets... under general warranty provisions that covers all the warranties, including our limited powertrain warranty:

The warranties in this booklet do not cover:
Any failure caused by modifying the vehicle, or installing accessories not authorized by Honda...
You appear to have missed the second word in that sentence... failure. Modifying a vehicle or flashing the ECU does not void the warranty, both per the law and the warranty terms. As I previously stated:

"If a mod causes a warrantable component to fail, then only that specific component's warranty would be null until it's been replaced and inspected, at which point the warranty would apply to it. What modifications can never do is void an entire warranty if it turns out to be the cause of damage."
It would be wise to acutally read the warranty and the law before making factually inaccurate suppositions regarding either.​


I've now thoroughly exhausted the patience I have for this topic; users have been provided with factually accurate information they can fact check... it's your choice to use it or not.
 
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86salmon

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Since we'd like to speak to laws and contracts... I'll just point out a statement Honda makes in our warranty booklets... under general warranty provisions that covers all the warranties, including our limited powertrain warranty:

The warranties in this booklet do not cover:
Any failure caused by modifying the vehicle, or installing accessories not authorized by Honda.

Just figured I'd throw that out there... as it's been there the whole time. :thumbsup:
Per Magnuson-Moss, Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty

Soooo... There's that. The burden of proof is supposed to lie with the warrantor

How that pans out in the real world is something I don't wish to test :confused:
 

gtman

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JW0914,

No one that's posted here is ignoring the letter of the law in terms of the M-M Act or it's inherent intent.

Applying it successfully in the real world is the issue because, to put it bluntly, manufacturers can afford better lawyers than most owners.
 

JW0914

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JW0914,

No one that's posted here is ignoring the letter of the law in terms of the M-M Act or it's inherent intent.

Applying it successfully in the real world is the issue because, to put it bluntly, manufacturers can afford better lawyers than most owners.
People can't be helped if they're not reading...​

"Common sense: Why exactly would one hire a lawyer in lieu of directly contacting Honda's legal department and filing a complaint with their state's D.o.I?
(manufacturers must respond within 30 days by law, as the D.o.I is the governing body that regulates warranties and insurance)"

Since many have probably never heard of the D.o.I [Dept of Insurance], each state has one and they regulate warranties and insurance.
(such as insurance deductables, which are negotiated by the D.o.I for all residents in a state every 2 years)
  • In order for any business to sell or provide a warranty, they must be licensed by the D.o.I to provide warranties in that state
    • This is crucial to the MMWA, as the D.o.I is the state's enforcement authority with a much harsher bite than the FTC, as the D.o.I can suspend or revoke a manufacturer's ability to offer warranties in their state.

      It is, for this reason, the MMWA (15 USC §2302) is taken seriously by OEMs, especially publicly held businesses, as should a state's D.o.I suspend or revoke the license of a publicly held company, an SEC investigation will [likely] be launched fairly soon after at the request of shareholders since such a suspension or revocation harms all shareholders.
      (Everyone saw this in action last year when Elon Musk was forced to step down by the SEC due to his comments.)
Don't take my word for any of this... please fact-check what I've presented, call HondaCare's customer service, do your own research so that you know how to advocate for yourself, as not only are you your best advocate, no one else is going to advocate on your behalf.

It would be wise to take anecdotal experiences with a grain of salt... many seem to be under this preconceived notion that enforcing the law requires an attorney; no, it simply requires the user to read their warranty terms, this one page PDF outline, and taking the time to reach out to the business' legal dept and their state's D.o.I. Fairly painless way to spend an hour...​
 
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amirza786

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Ignorance is bliss... the law doesn't care whether you agree with it or not or what one thinks of it. It's due to this ideology that misinformation regarding warranties reigns supreme on forums. You may want to take the time to reference the PDF linked to, visiting the FTC page linked to within it.

I don't have the time or patience to argue with people online about their uneducated opinions about the law... you're welcome to have whatever opinions you wish to have, but if you'd like to educate yourself with the facts, please see the previously linked to PDF and feel free to fact check it.

I'm not your mother... you have the choice to educate yourself or not to, I couldn't care less either way. Best of luck =]
I'm curious why you are referencing me. I neither defended the law nor stated anything against it (or even reference it!!). Also I never argued that modding your car should be or should not be covered under warranty or if this law even applies to it. in fact, I dont give a crap about it one way or another. I think you may have read someone elses post and are mistaking me for someone else....and thanks mom! :) Now stop drinking so much coffee
 
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charleswrivers

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@JW0914 … it's clear you're trying to put out good info... and, to my detriment in laws and warranties, I will tend to defer to the notion that I am responsible for my actions and would not rely on taking a vehicle my actions likely broke, waiting for an inspection to say, "Yes. This rod was thrown through the block. You were tuned. No coverage for the engine." then fighting it in arbitration... and if that failed, taking it to court telling the judge, "Yes. I was tuned. Not my fault." and Honda's lawyer saying, "He was tuned. Here's the results of our inspection".

It would never get that far because I wouldn't pursue it. I'd pull out my wallet and fix it. Some might. Some have. The responsible-grown-ass-man part of me doesn't prevent me from reading... but it does hold me back from trying squeak by to use those rights to my benefit, saying my actions didn't cause a failure, when I'd feel personally responsible for the consequences my actions most likely caused. That's just not me. (shrug) A fool and his money are easily parted I suppose... but my self-respect is worth more to me. I'm not going to fight a fight I don't believe in... whine and complain something isn't my fault when it most probably is.

I'm familiar with MM... I've read through it as recently as this past year and figured I'd pull it up again. I get it allows 3rd party OEM equivalent parts to be used and not affect the manufacturers warranty, to me, as it's greatest benefit. If I modify a part and it breaks... my whole warranty isn't gone. However... if I use a calibration in the ECU that not from the manufacturer causing the engine to develop ~1/2 again the torque it was delivered from the factory and it throws a rod... I wouldn't entertain Honda's limited powertrain warranty providing coverage to that engine... or, hell, if it was rod 4 (pretty sure that was Pookie's) and threw it through the transmission... that transmission either.

To me, modifications falls under:

15 U.S. Code § 2302 a. (6) Exceptions and exclusions from the terms of the warranty.

as an allowance of:

15 U.S. Code § 2304 a. (3) such warrantor may not exclude or limit consequential damages for breach of any written or implied warranty on such product, unless such exclusion or limitation conspicuously appears on the face of the warranty

Seems like, "The warranties in this booklet do not cover: Any failure caused by modifying the vehicle, or installing accessories not authorized by Honda." is conspicuously posted in the warranty booklet from my Civic.

As a guy who can read... I've gone back to re-read stuff and at your behest, I still see nothing that would lead me to be confident I have a leg to stand on if there was a powertrain failure after I modified my ECUs software. Of course, that would still fall into the inspection process... which one could arbitrate... then take to legal action, all covered in manual, as the law requires. If someone desires to do this... it is their right under the law if they feel like the inspection is incorrect and they want to push the issue and get Honda to cover the repair bill. Just because I wouldn't doesn't mean others shouldn't/can't. It is their right.
 

amirza786

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