Public Service Announcement: Modding and Warranty

  1. H3llsp4wn707

    H3llsp4wn707 Senior Member

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    Its really quite simple- if you modify your car to operate outside of the stock parameters the manufacturer can and most likely will deny your warranty claim. Its very easy for a professional mechanic to tell when parts have been removed, altered, or put back in place.
     
  2. integra15

    integra15 Senior Member

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    If there is any question, you can be 99% sure the dealer or Honda wont cover it. Even if you are in the right, unless you are willing to get lawyers involved you are most of the time out of luck.
     
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  3. Jeffers

    Jeffers Senior Member

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    The first time I heard about the Magnuson-Moss warranty act, my understanding of it was that dealers were at the time implying that you _needed_ to have all of your maintenance performed by the dealer in order to keep your warranty intact.
    And the Magnuson-Moss warranty act put into law that as long as the scheduled maintenance performed, it didn't necessarily have to be performed by the dealer to keep your warranty intact.
     
  4. H3llsp4wn707

    H3llsp4wn707 Senior Member

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    The law was created to fix problems as a result of manufacturers using disclaimers on warranties in an unfair or misleading manner. I don't have a clue where people got the idea that it has anything to do with modifying a car to run outside the stock parameters, but they couldn't be more wrong.
     
  5. Phy

    Phy Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

    Most people interpret this to mean that they can't deny a transmission warranty because you have an aftermarket air intake (or similar unrelated part caused some problem), and that if they want to deny the warranty they need to prove you messed it up.
    But, like it's been said, is it worth fighting them in every case?
     
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  6. repeet

    repeet Senior Member

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    The bottom line is, when is it cheaper to hire a lawyer and pay court costs, then it is to simply fix the car.
     
  7. JW0914

    JW0914 Senior Member

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    #37 JW0914, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
    Unless Honda made a change to the electronics for manual transmissions, PCM stores zero transmission data on the Type R, so it's logical they don't on the regular Civics either.​

    This is not only factually inaccurate, but it's also a violation of 15 USC 2302; since violating 15 USC 2302 can lead to anything from massive fines to a revocation of a manufacturer's license to sell warranties by each state's D.o.I [Dept of Insurance, which regulates insurance and warranties], American Honda is not going to expose themselves to that much legal liability due to shareholders alone. Doing so Would likely invite an SEC investigation for damage to shareholders since a company like American Honda violating 15 USC 2302 wouldn't be doing so with just one customer. (The SEC has great latitude in enforcement, as Elon Musk found out, so again, Honda wouldn't open themselves up to such legal and financial liabilities.)

    Definitive answers do exist and any consumer is welcome to gather the exact same data from their vehicle that Honda gets from a dealership by purchasing a DST-i and subscription to HDS.​

    None of the above voids a warranty. If a mod causes a warrantable component to fail, then only that specific component's warranty would be null until it's been replaced and inspected, at which point the warranty would apply to it. What modifications can never do is void an entire warranty if it turns out to the cause of damage.

    People would be wise to rely less on hearsay and more on actually reading their warranties and familiarizing themselves with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 (15 USC 2302).​


    This work order screenshot seems to lack credibility at face value due to the massive amount of legal exposure Honda has if this work order is indeed genuine.
    • Owners need to familiarize themself with the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act (15 USC 2302), as the burden of proof, by law, is not on the owner but the manufacturer
      (this isn't some new thing, it's been law for 44.5yrs)

    There's a few issues with the screenshot shown of the customer's work order:
    1. Powertrain warranty in it's entirety cannot be cancelled/voided by law, even if the owner did cause whatever damage occurred... what would happen is the damage would simply not be covered under the warranty, which the FTC has been quite clear on.

    2. If the work order is genuine, the customer needs to do three things:
      1. Read their warranty for starters, as what's written doesn't even remotely match what's in the warranty
      2. Reach out to HondaCare's customer service, who will verify Honda abides by 15 USC 2302 and modifications to a vehicle do not void the warranty
      3. Reach out to Honda's legal dept

    It is on YOU to know your legal rights when it comes to warranties.
    I recommend anyone with a car to maintain a copy of the above-linked PDF in their glovebox that also either includes a link to it or also includes the printouts of the relevant links in the PDF.


    How would satellites be pinging your vehicle without a GPS antenna? There's some feature you have in your SI that requires GPS, you may wish to start there...​
     
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  8. amirza786

    amirza786 Senior Member

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    I'm pretty sure he was exercising sarcasm...
     
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  9. gtman

    gtman Senior Member

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    #39 gtman, Jan 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
    A couple of points on Magnusson-Moss.

    It originally was intended to protect consumers from dealers who were voiding warranties anytime someone used aftermarket versus OEM replacement parts. The law basically says a dealer has to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure. When it was written, I don't think ecu tunes were even a "thing".

    The difference between a tune and any other aftermarket part is that essentially you're completely changing the factory brain of the drivetrain. It's not just a simple change like a short ram or something.

    And while Magnusson-Moss on paper sounds like the burden of proof is on the dealer, it doesn't mean it will win you the case in the real world.

    Anyone have any stats on the percentage of court cases where the Magnusson-Moss act won the case for the owner?
     
  10. Andre80

    Andre80 Senior Member

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    I believe that no one can doubt the cancellation of a guarantee for a melody, it is indisputable

    But in many cases it can be used to not answer other problems

    Let's take an example of another brand

    The first TSI engines had a big problem with the chain tensioner, in many cases it sent the valves out of phase, VW also out of warranty changed engines


    Let's assume that one of them had the melody, having the guarantee canceled in such a case is really bad


    (My sister's ENGINE broke after 1 year after the warranty expired

    The dealer wanted to make him pay for the engine

    I printed all the discussions and articles where the problem was mentioned, and I threatened to write to all the newspapers and to VW, in 20 days, we had the new engine)


    It is right that the brand protects itself, but who protects us from injustice?

    Fighting against a multinational doesn't make sense in this case

    Do you understand something of what I wrote?:oops:
     
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  11. amirza786

    amirza786 Senior Member

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    Also to your point, I think it refers to OEM equivalent replacement parts such as oil filters, air filters, water pumps etc. a few years ago the front struts started leaking on my 2013 Toyota Sienna. This was the second pair in 4 years, so my mechanic suggested Monroe struts over the OEM. The OEM only have a two year warranty while Monroe have a lifetime warranty. So far no issues with the Monroe struts, which are OEM equivalent
     
  12. FC3L15B7

    FC3L15B7 I'm a machine.

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    I was reading as guest and your comment forced me to login.. lol..

    It's clearly a "carbon copy" work order printed with an impact printer so the printed transfers to the copy. No one dug out a dot matrix printer and made fake work order paper..... It's real. lol.

    They determined the ECU has been flashed by the flash count. They determined by the flash count that it was flashed back to factory recently, which infers a cover up and they have every right to void the warranty.

    There are no secret log events - it was flashed 150 miles prior to the car having been brought in. That's all they need to know and all they need in court if the customer wanted to fight it.

    This is not a criminal case. It would be based on the preponderance of evidence and that evidence suggests the customer modified the car, ruined in and tried to cover it up with a flash back to factory. Customer loses by a landslide. Court adjourned.
     
  13. FC3L15B7

    FC3L15B7 I'm a machine.

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    No, there is no need for more to the story. The customer laid down on the ground, curled into a fetal position and put their thumb in their mouth. hehe. They customer conceded to the void warranty as per the work order because it's their fault and they were caught trying to cover up the mod. ;)
     
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  14. FC3L15B7

    FC3L15B7 I'm a machine.

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    If it's under lease or finance, they need to know where you might hide it when you don't make your payment. It seems intrusive, but you blame losers who don't pay their bills for that, can't you now - yes. :)
     
  15. FC3L15B7

    FC3L15B7 I'm a machine.

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    If the customer brought the car in as-is with the modification active it's possible for them to test and determine it's not responsible for the damage. However, the evidence suggests a cover up and that law does not apply.
     
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