Public Service Announcement: Modding and Warranty

[FlexRex]

we don't think so. we rely on an etuner who knows the platform well, therefore reliability, who has a history on the product he sells. ktuner / hondata has tested the product, it is not etuner who raises the limiters and pressures at random, without testing their product. there has been a development. we hope they won't find out about the change because we are sure that the melody will not spoil the engine. the failure would also have occurred stock. to blame the modification is only an excuse for not paying and forfeiting the guarantee. I believe in this. I drove 140000 km with the previous car. I have Flooring every day for 10 years with 100 nm and 38 hp more. engines explode for reasons other than melody, the melody can increase the already existing malfunction. I hope it is understandable.

Its making sense but that tuner then should warranty his work.

Imagine building a deck or a bathroom at your house and first contractor called Honda does a great job and warranties his work for 10yrs.

Then you hire a second contractor, eTuner lets call him, and he modifies first guys work making it better in your and his eyes. Now why would Honda still be responsible for its work when it was modified by eTuner?

No one is saying that the tunes are bad. Just that each warranty their own work, not someone else’s.

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[Andre80]

Its making sense but that tuner then should warranty his work.

Imagine building a deck or a bathroom at your house and first contractor called Honda does a great job and warranties his work for 10yrs.

Then you hire a second contractor, eTuner lets call him, and he modifies first guys work making it better in your and his eyes. Now why would Honda still be responsible for its work when it was modified by eTuner?

No one is saying that the tunes are bad. Just that each warranty their own work, not someone else’s.

your reasoning is right. but analyze these two cases 1. case I use the clutch and gearbox improperly, at 10,000 km I have problems, Honda changes the clutch and gearbox 2. case I improperly use the clutch and gearbox, at 10,000 km I have problems, Honda discovers the melody, and invalidates the warranty. let's say that a badly made melody can damage the engine, a well done melody no, it is undeniable now there are decades of data that prove it. honda is right to protect itself, but I also believe that blaming a change is often used improperly and for convenience

 

[FlexRex]

your reasoning is right. but analyze these two cases 1. case I use the clutch and gearbox improperly, at 10,000 km I have problems, Honda changes the clutch and gearbox 2. case I improperly use the clutch and gearbox, at 10,000 km I have problems, Honda discovers the melody, and invalidates the warranty. let's say that a badly made melody can damage the engine, a well done melody no, it is undeniable now there are decades of data that prove it. honda is right to protect itself, but I also believe that blaming a change is often used improperly and for convenience

Thats too much work to figure out if indeed it causes a failure.

Hondas rules are leave our melody and we will warranty it UNLESS you did something else crazy that damaged the tranny that they can see from data.

I am not saying it is the melody that damaged the car, but its not Hondas melody so they dont care.

 

[jakdotdot]

Tune specific stuff starts around 12:30.

 

[Andre80]

can you give me a summary?

 

[FlexRex]

can you give me a summary?

Basically youre shit out of luck.

Dont mod the car if warranty is more important than the melody.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

I digress the pertinent topic of a "problematic" Honda Civic 10th Gen and pose the question to previous comments:
Has anyone ever obtained a "warrantee" from a tuner? Whether a Dyno or Canned tune? I surely have never received that benefit and surely they would not for oh so many reasons.

Now, as to the topic:
There is a Quality Assurance process in automobile manufacturing that adheres to ISO 9001; which provides specifications for products, services and systems, to ensure quality, safety and efficiency and that they are instrumental in facilitating International trade. Honda has a pretty stringent Quality Assurance model in place. Honda manufactures to more than just the U.S.; they are INTERNATIONAL. Honda has done its Qualtiy Assurance accross the globe before introducing product in the U.S.
Top 7 Quality Assurance goals Honda has obtained are:
- Increased Customer Loyalty
- Gained repeat business
- Obtained Customer referrals
- Improved Safety
- Improved Market position
- Reduced Liability risks
- Contributed to Overall product brand

Quality control in manufacturing can be a little tricky. Often, it is done at the end of the production process, only catching defects after the fact. Engine & Transmission issues are not evident in the 10th Gen production line from the factory.

There are (at least) two levels of Effective Quality Control and I will list a 3rd for good measure:
1) Operators monitor the manufacturing process and ensure that there is little variation.
2) Engineers routinely monitor the product design for issues. When a problem is found, it is immediately fixed.
and
3) Honda has a superbly implemented Quality Control process that has streamlined their production by:
- monitoring the Acquisition of raw materials
- purchasing third-party components and sub-assemblies
- designing and using inspection procedures
- Complying with production processes
and
- responding to defects

Now, all of this may seem like "over the top" for some and may not appease the few reports of problems that some customers claim; however, Honda has done its homework. When that homework is done, it is done and they will assuredly support the defects they are keen to or not - dependant on the fact finding from their distribution centers (Dealers / Regional HQ's).
The Magnuson-Moss Act (for automobiles) applies to "aftermarket parts", not tampering with the vehicle's electronic control PCM/ECM.

 

[MaTtKs]

can you give me a summary?

Essentially, you’re very likely to be screwed if a manufacturer denies your claim due to an aftermarket modification. Even if the modification technically had nothing to do with the failure, you’d have to prove that in court going up against the manufacturer. That’s also keeping in mind that the repair cost would likely be much less than the costs associated with the trial if you attempted to take it to court.

One thing the lawyer said was basically that the jury opinion would be “What did you expect? You modified your engine and the engine blew up.” He also said that most lawyers who work in this area of expertise likely wouldn’t even take the case.

As they say, if you can’t afford to repair the vehicle in the event something does fail (specifically modifying the ECU/engine tuning), then you probably shouldn’t be modifying the car.

 

[Andre80]

well, that's correct

 

[gtman]

I think everyone tends to overthink the whole aftermarket parts and tuning discussion in terms of warranty impact.

Here's the real world bottom line. If your absolute concern is to have complete and utter piece of mind regarding warranty work, keep it stock.

Anything beyond stock gets you into a grey area of Magnuson-Moss and dealer judgement etc...

PersonalIy, I would feel comfortable adding an intake and knowing that it won't affect my A/C warranty, for example. But you never 100% know, dealers being who dealers are.

As far as tuning, that's more cut and dried if you ask me. If there's any major drivetrain component failure, you're screwed unless you have luck beyond belief.

And this is where people take sides. I believe (rightly or wrongly) that the three major tuners for our cars (KTuner, Hondata, TSP 1/ D-Rob) are reputable. I believe they have done testing and have designed their tunes in a such a way as to have a high safety margin. And the fact is, they are in business to make money. You won't continue to make money if your product damages high numbers of engines and transmissions.

Tunes obviously put more stress on engines. The tuners don't know if folks purchasing their tunes will abuse the increased power. I totally understand why they aren't in the warranty game.

Based on everything I know though, I think the vast majority will do well on the base or canned tunes. But nothing is guaranteed.

 

[Design]

This falls in line with asking the question, "do I understand what the mod is doing to my car?" When I added the KTuner base map, I made sure to run an oil analysis to find out:

1. If the tune was causing unusual/accelerated wear on the motor.
2. If the parameters of the tune required an adjusted maintenance schedule.

My results have shown that the base KTuner map is very safe "as is" when paired with a decent synthetic oil. And knowing how the base Hondata tune works, I'd feel comfortable applying the same logic there. BUT... those are my results on my motor with my driving habits.

YMMV.

 

[Design]

What's more, as was mentioned earlier in the thread this generally only occurs if Honda corporate has to be brought in. What exactly happened that is not reflected in that image that brought Honda corporate in? If they didn't diagnose it, how do they know the tranny was blown for instance to bring corporate in?

In my experience, a regional engineer is brought in during high value claims to determine:

1. The parameters/conditions leading to the failure in question
2. Whether said conditions could lead to additional failures on other platforms

Their job is solely to relay factual information between the dealer and AHM. They do not deal directly with the customer.

 

[Rich19Si]

The picture shows that the owner is having trouble with the transmission and is having his powertrain warranty, including the transmission, voided due to having altered the ECU. I don't see anything wrong, am I missing something here?

What if he had worn his piston rings or bent a rod, should he still be covered since Honda cant assume it was a tune?

Voiding the warranty seems logical. Look how many people are having their clutch slip with just a tune, imagine the abuse of their drivetrain.

 

[360glitch]

I have seen Honda regional engineers approve warranty replacements on both engines and transmissions on tuned tenth gen Civics before, even some coming in with a "flex fuel" ethanol blend in the fuel tank. That is not say Honda has not since changed their procedures. There does not seem to be a clear cut answer to this age old question, however there is always some level of risk of having warranty repairs denied, one that increases as you pack on the modifications.

 

[amirza786]

This has been repeated over and over, but I will say it again. For those who value their warranties and plan on keeping their cars long term, tuning is not for you. For those who believe any type of tuning or modifications will harm your engine and drivetrain, tuning is not for you. And lastly if you bought this car or recently bought it, want to get 300 plus WHP but have no experience in tuning or modifying, know almost nothing about this process, definitely stay away from tuning until you gain more knowledge on the pros and cons, than you can make a more informed decision.

As far as getting warranty work done on a tuned car, I've seen a lot of threads where warranty work was performed on a tuned car, including a blown clutch, transmission, and injectors. It's just becomes a roll of the dice

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