Primer: Hitting the track in your Civic!

chi town brat

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While I'm thinking about it...

Is a helmet with a Snell sticker of SA2005 still good for this year, or is it too old?
This can be totally club dependent. For the SCCA here is what is stated in the 2017 Solo Rule Book (sorry for any Adobe PDF text copy errors):

4.3 DRIVERS SAFETY EQUIPMENT
4.3.1 Helmets
Helmets meeting the following standards must be worn while on course: All helmets meeting the latest or two immediately preceding Snell Foundation standards (SA2015, SA2010, SAH2010, SA2005, M2015, M2010, M2005, K2015, K2010, K2005); SFI standards 31.1, 41.1, 31.1A, 31.2A, 41.1A, 41.2A; ECE R22.05; FIA standards 8859-2015, 8860-2010, 8860-2004; or British spec BS6658-85 type A are acceptable.Full face or modular helmets shall be worn while competing in an open-wheel car, formula car, or kart. Face shield, goggles, or similar face protection (conventional eyeglasses are not sufficient) shall be worn while competing in any other vehicle with less than the standard-size windshield.Formula Junior drivers must use helmets meeting the above, SFI 24.1 (Youth Helmets), Snell CMR2007 (Children’s Motorsports Restricted), or Snell CMS2007 (Children’s Motorsports Standard) specifications. Also, Formula Junior helmets must be of closed face design incorporating full face shields and chin bars.For maximum protection, helmets must fit securely and should provide ad-equate peripheral vision. The chin strap must be securely fastened. Loaner helmets should be available to vehicle occupants not having their own.
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BarracksSi

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Errr-ah.

He asked, "Have you used it?" I replied, "I've worn it and driven with it, but I hope I never have to use it." As they say, a helmet is something that only does its job once.
 
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Anthony FK8

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If you plan to Auto-X your CTR know that the SCCA has not classed it yet, so by default you will likely be thrown into SS which is like porsche 911 turbo s and nissan GTR class, my region has decided to self class it in B Street Stock (BS) on the basis of the Focus RS being put in that class, which is a much better Street PAX. Hopefully your region will do the same but fear not B street is also the same class for the S2000 which gives the RS a run for its money! Enjoy your HPDE/AutoX and remember its a learning experience not about going fast!
 


chi town brat

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If you plan to Auto-X your CTR know that the SCCA has not classed it yet, so by default you will likely be thrown into SS which is like porsche 911 turbo s and nissan GTR class, my region has decided to self class it in B Street Stock (BS) on the basis of the Focus RS being put in that class, which is a much better Street PAX. Hopefully your region will do the same but fear not B street is also the same class for the S2000 which gives the RS a run for its money! Enjoy your HPDE/AutoX and remember its a learning experience not about going fast!
Central Florida Region SCCA is going with B Street as well.
 

chi town brat

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@Anthony FK8 would it seriously fall in to Super Street by default per the SEB?
 

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We just took our 17 Si to an Extreme Speed event this weekend at Willow Springs. A lot of fun and we learned quite a bit about how the car performs with and without a FlashPro tune. Overall, it was a blast and this new Si is pretty fast around the track! Outside temps were high (95 to 100 F) and I imagine during the winter time it will perform even better.

Honda Civic 10th gen Primer: Hitting the track in your Civic! 19624882_341117946309407_6388511828414038016_n
 

ronmcdon

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I should add that if you do plan to autoX or do a track day, consider your alignment and if it's appropriate for the event you're attending. I know I've said this before, but one of the most embarrassing moments I've had was destroying a new set of tires after 4-5 runs because I was running factory alignment on my 08 civic si.

Another thing to consider is cost. In my past experience, the cost of the event was not the majority of expenditures. Tires, brake pads, gas, and maybe hotel costs also added up. I only go to maybe 1 or 2 events annual if that because it's all I can afford when everything adds up. A set of 4 summer street tires Dunlop Z2's in 275/18 cost around 1,200 from tirerack. Maybe Im just a bad driver, but I will be happy if I can get more than 4 track days out of them.
 

chi town brat

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@ronmcdon good pionts. Cost is why I don't choose to Club Race but for Autocross I can afford the expense. My Hoosier A7s can last a full season where the A6s could not. Again that was on 15 in Volk TE37s. It will be interesting to see how a 20 in street tire of 240 tread wear (looking for 200 tread wear for the future) will handle autocross. Most of our events are on an airstrip or in a parking lot, still its a lot of turning.

Currently the CTR has negative camber set from the factory and currently it does not look like it can be adjusted and there isn't a camber kit at the time I posted this that I know of.
 


Anthony FK8

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@Anthony FK8 would it seriously fall in to Super Street by default per the SEB?
The default class for any car accordingly SCCA national rule said for 2017 is SS until it is classed, which means your raw time is your PAX time, but BS seems to be a fair class, that's the golf R, FOcus RS, Honda S2000 class. For local events I would encourage you to tell your event chairs to class you there. It complies with appendix A "catch all Not otherwise Classed vehicles" but thats the National SCCA and your region should be generous about what rules to stretch and which ones to be tight on. My region and other regions locally feel BS is fair, obviously you couldn't compete nationally with the new CTR because it is not officially classed, it will likely be soon!
 
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Anthony FK8

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I should add that if you do plan to autoX or do a track day, consider your alignment and if it's appropriate for the event you're attending. I know I've said this before, but one of the most embarrassing moments I've had was destroying a new set of tires after 4-5 runs because I was running factory alignment on my 08 civic si.

Another thing to consider is cost. In my past experience, the cost of the event was not the majority of expenditures. Tires, brake pads, gas, and maybe hotel costs also added up. I only go to maybe 1 or 2 events annual if that because it's all I can afford when everything adds up. A set of 4 summer street tires Dunlop Z2's in 275/18 cost around 1,200 from tirerack. Maybe Im just a bad driver, but I will be happy if I can get more than 4 track days out of them.
To touch of some of the points in depth,

Alignment
Factory alignment is never really ideal for any form of racing except going straight, Excessive camber effects braking distance, and straight-line stability with the gain of cornering grip! typically an aggressive street alignment should be around -2.0 degrees of camber. Camber is a wearable angle used to increase contact patch on compression of a suspension, higher contact patch, higher friction = more grip to accelerate, brake, and corner
Toe, toe as many of the FWD racers know is your best friend and also your worst enemy, not enough toe and the car is wonky, boring, and uneventful, which is why many factory alignments are set to 0 toe, in front and maybe slight toe in on rear, because given the scrub radius will effect toe in or out under braking and acceleration (These are all done to keep you safe and driving straight mostly). Too much toe, and you're slaying tires left and right and experiencing lots of oversteer (which is fun and fast but not safe on the street typically)


I've personally autoX on a factory alignment in my 9th gen Si for years, never had any crazy excessive wear on tires, this is on 1 set of all season, and 2 sets of re-71r. Adding extra psi in the tire front and back can certainly help. Ironically enough on my re-71r i would run a cold 36F/33-38R psi (depending on how much oversteer I needed for the course being that it was raced in the stock class) which is close to the Honda recommended 35/33 for the OEM tire.

I would encourage anyone who plans to track/autoX their CTR to get the most aggressive street alignment (it is not required) within the OEM range of adjustment (I believe college hills released the range, or it can be found somewhere on this forum) for the sake of enjoying your track day and conserving tires out on track, and remember to listen to the tire when it screams for help.

Brakes
Factory pads and rotors on my 9th gen held up great for 36,000 miles of autocross every season and daily driving. I would imagine the factory pads on the CTR will hold up even better, if not grab a Hawk HPS or something similar, that will be comfortable DD, good for autocross and your occasional track day. Track day pads absolutely suck for Daily Driving, they are noisy, dusty, and you won't ever get them hot enough to function in the optimal range, and if you do manage to that on the street I'm going to guess you'll find flashing lights in your rearview shortly after lol. Obviously track day pads are ideal for track days, but a high performance street pad or OEM pad will do fine for one or two with daily driving, and plenty of autocross.

Tires/Wheels
The 200TW autocross and track day tires are not all created equal even though they have the stamps on the side that say 200TW.
ZII star spec's tend to last the longest (ideal for someone who wants good lap times and lots of time out of track, not the fastest autoX tire) Rival 1.5s tend to get hot quick have a great drivable range, but will not last as long as a ZII direzza. The BF Goodrich rival is more a contender for the Bridgestone Re-71r, which in all the testing quite literally can hang with the R competition tires not meant for street driving on grip level, but won't last as long as your R comp. The 71r has the stiffest sidewall of any 200TW tire which increases steering response, but is not as forgiving as the Rival S. I believe Toyo's R888r which is 100TW performed slower at autocross in comparison to 71r and Rival 1.5S but lasted longer and posted better lap times on Willow Springs.

Onto Price! Sadly most fun/competitive DOT 200TW tire and R comps will cost around 200+ a tire depending on the diameter. a 15in tire is like $150 vs $250 for lets say an 18in. for a set of tires you're looking at $500-1500 depending on what you buy. OEM conti 6 tires are $320 a piece.

it is not required but purchasing a set of race wheels is a wise chose because the cost of an 18in tire vs 20 is big, but will be offset by the cost of the wheels. Depending on your budget, you can purchase a set of wheels for $250 a piece, or $2500 a piece (for your custom forged BBS or HRE) an affordable Rays VolkRacing wheel probably around $500-750

Other
Typical autocross event is something like 35-45 dollars per event if you have a membership, if not throw on an additional 40 and hope they give you free entry for signing up.

Track day. I will state I am an east coast guy, and we don't have the luxury of "affordable" track days like some of the west coast folks.So you're looking at anywhere from 150 dollars to quite literally 1,000 depending on where you live, that does not always include lodging, garage space, and of course your track day insurance.. I encourage any and everyone to purchase track day insurance well above the value of your car, not because I sell insurance but I understand anything can happen even in a safe and controlled environment! hell, call your local agent and get more insurance on your type R for daily driving, don't tell them you plan to track it, thats why they have track day insurance (depending on your provider, I've seen people get dropped for doing 1 autocross event which sucks!)
Gas- as we all know MPG for the CTR is decent but if you plan on driving on your 200TW tires to the track expect to get like 26mpg (I used to get around 28mpg on 40psi to autocross events roughly an hour away so 75miles ish on 71r's). keep that tank filled this car pulls average lateral G of 1.02 according to car and driver on factory tires, you can get fuel pump starvation if you fall low on fuel under high G load turns. WHICH IS BAD!

Concluding: Find yourself a local speedshop or dealer who will support and take care of your vehicles needs if you have intentions of doing any form of grassroots racing. and Don't let these rough estimates turn you off. to rent and race a Pirelli World Challenge car TC class, is like 25,000 dollars a weekend lol.

Sorry if i give bad advice LOL :) if I did turn you off to grassroots racing, remember it is fun! and a learning experience, and like i said, depending on how serious you are about it, you can get into it for 50 dollars a weekend or 25,000 if you want to race TC world challenge car! I encourage everyone to try at least one autocross event and one track day event and see what if it is really for you! But who wouldn't want to track a Type R!!!:spaz:
 

Forcino

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Any thoughts on if the Si will be in HS or GS? In this month's SCCA fast track is put all non CTR and Si Civics in HS. Makes me think the Si is destined for GS
 

Anthony FK8

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Hello everyone!! Back here again with some promising data!!! My previous post was on my general knowledge of racing and tires! now I have proof!

I did my first autocross in the Type R.. and boy are we lucky to own one because that car is quite insane!!
Honda Civic 10th gen Primer: Hitting the track in your Civic! IMG_7075.PNG
These are the results from yesterday's event! (names crossed out for privacy reasons)
Sitting in 8th place due to crappy morning runs, and lack of overall course knowledge is me in my silly Type R..
Yes it is bone stock with conti 6 tires. Being an avid autocross racer I have to say the conti 6 tires held up just fine! No issues with getting heat in them, I actually over heated them and had them probably sitting around 175 degrees on the hottest lap. all the cars above are class set up for street. So you're looking at aftermarket wheels and tires like Enkei rpf1 Re-71r/Rival 1.5s, Sway bars, exhausts, shocks, bushing upgrades, you name it! the region is very competitive and based on the raw times shown you can see! my good friend in the RS who ran a similar 35.9 took the class championship for our region so you know he means business (also running on wheels and tires, 71r)

About the car!.. I had bumped up the pressures to a 38psi cold! which means it was sitting around 43ish... roughly hot! which I felt was a good starting point. 38/38 FR. Car was driven with Traction Control/Stability control off and in +R mode, Launched at around 2,500 to 3,000 rpm while letting the clutch slip because that 23 psi of boost builds very quickly and can overwhelm the front tires with power before you know it!
As we have discussed in the thread the car was classed in B street, the region offered me D street but I laughed in their face a little and told them "i want to give others a chance". The SCCA has no official class for it yet so technically permitting national rules it would be an SS class car, it is tough to say 100% if B street is going to be the official class, we had a pro solo and solo nats trophy winner at the event in an RS who put a 34.8 down so about a second faster (fully prepped autocross B street car).
The course was very left turn oriented, so the left front saw much more abuse on than the right but ultimately no major damage was done on the tires, i feel the wearability was just fine, I drove a total of 125 miles, plus the 6 laps at the event, the tires were managed very well all thanks to the super computer that is wired to the whole car!!

So if you are wondering aside from all the suspension geometry magic, and sticky tire combo, How does the Type R turn such fast lap times? The steering feel in +R is very direct, and I discovered on course that you never actually get full electronic traction control off! but it will turn the Vehicle stability control off. The type R uses the mechanical front diff and the giant brembos to effectually put all 300+hp to the ground. combining the torque vectoring through braking, it allows the type R to keep more effective use of the Helical LSD. Thus preventing the inside tire from spinning under power, typically I would left foot brake in my 9th gen si, but the type R does it more effectively and faster than I ever could! This essentially allows you to get back to throttle sooner, and the steering doesn't get away from you due to the low scrub radius. In all I took a 2017 Civic Type R on stock tires and battled against Focus RS's, Mazda Miata's and Rx8's and the famous Mini Coopers (which have insane pax) all running on the best autocross tires, and placed 8th out of 25 in Street class with a PAX time of 29.409 and that miata coming in at 28.525. I never understood what the "Fastest FWD production car" meant until I autoX'd my CTR. For those in the future looking to be competitive in the car, a nice titanium exhaust, and wheels will easily shave 30lbs off the car. I think a larger rear sway bar with some range of adjustment maybe give the type R a bit more of a competitive edge but in all I am very impressed with what a bone stock ctr can do!
Honda Civic 10th gen Primer: Hitting the track in your Civic! IMG_7074.JPG
 

chi town brat

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Great review.

Mini with an insane PAX time, thanks Craig Wilcox? LOL. Man that day at Natz sucked for a lot of people there. David Marcus is out of Florida and races with us in our region and filed the protest and now the SEB has to really deal with tunes that deal with boost tables that "shouldn't" be touched. And no, I am not making the argument here that it was. Craig is a talented driver.

Thanks for the input on this. I can't wait until after Nationals, then I'll be out in my CTR!
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