My Type R Christmas Eve-Eve Test Drive (Long read)

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I'm kind of in the same boat with you, I've always been a fan of Honda, but the markup and honda dealers being arrogant about the CTR really turns me off. I have given up searching for CTR at MSRP and I'm actually really interested in 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, I've seen dealership sells them as low as 38-39k which is such a bargain for what you get VS CTR, I wonder what you didn't like about it? did you test drove the 1LE mode? I would probably still choose the CTR if it's going to be the only car, but I love driving my truck as DD.
I test drove a 2018 Camaro 1SS 6-spd manual, I think it was black. Really nice car, drove well, had tons of power, loved the V8 exhaust sound and rev matching worked fine. Visibility outside the car wasn't even as bad as I thought it would be given the small windows. I'd say it was 80% of what you get in a Corvette for 80% of the price, a decent value and I prefer it over the Mustang or Challenger equivalents. I'm not a fan of the interior for the most part, the seat fabric, the gauge cluster, the general layout of some of the controls. If I were to get an SS, I'd definitely be looking at the 1LE package. In fact, if you can find a low mileage new/used 2017 Camaro SS, seems like you'd save another $5k or so. Again, not a bad choice, just not what I was looking for at this time.

How about 630HP Camaro for $40k? Here is a supercharged 2SS 6-spd.
Sponsored

 
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heavyD

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As far as I have been told, and read, both the S3 and Golf R use the same Haldex AWD system, and for 2018 the Golf R gets the 7-spd DSG box. You need to step up to the S4 before you get the Quattro AWD system in the S-line.
The RS3 Haldex system is the same as the Golf R but it's had an upgraded pump and is set up for more rear bias.
 
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The RS3 Haldex system is the same as the Golf R but it's had an upgraded pump and is set up for more rear bias.
S3 is not the RS3, I wouldn't doubt for $65k that Audi has done some additional tuning/upgrades of the AWD system on the RS3.
 

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I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did read your initial reviews. I think you're coming at the Type R the wrong way. Of course it's going to spin the tires a bit and wheel hop, it's still FWD and it's still going to be slower zero-to-60 than rivals such as the Focus RS and the Subaru STi or even a rear-wheel drive BMW M2. It's not designed to go drag racing, just not the platform for it. But when in your daily drive or on the track are going to be stomping on the throttle from a standstill and going as fast as you can to 60 mph and then suddenly stomping on the brakes? Never. That's why I strongly dislike 0-60 times. It's a useless statistic. Top-gear passing, high and low speed handling, midrange torque, shifter and clutch feel, how freely a vehicle revs... all of those are more important than 0-60 times. You may not like that off the line scrabbling for grip, but other than that, the Civic Type R is superior to the driving dynamics of the S2000 in every way. It handles better, it's faster from a roll, it's faster on track, it has gobs more torque, it's lighter (yes, it's true!), and it has way more functionality. You won't be disappointed if you actually gave it a fair shot and approach the car for what it is and not looking at it having already made up your mind that rear-wheel drive is superior. You're neglecting the fact that the Civic Type R is the fastest FWD production vehicle ever around a track and it rides way more comfortably than cars such as the Focus RS.
 
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I enjoy hearing your feedback. I feel that one test drive was enough, to me the car is very good but is not exactly what I was looking for. Based on that I'm moving on. For some people like myself, the greatest FWD hatchback on earth is not better than the RWD sportscar they already have parked in their garage. Maybe in a year or two I'll come back to the Type R, when Honda makes some changes and improvements, but for now I'm happy with my decision.

BTW, my S2000 weighed 2755 lbs on the garage scales last time I drove Roebling Road Raceway (each wheel was within 6 lbs of each other), what does your CTR weigh and how evenly is the weight distributed?
 
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I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did read your initial reviews. I think you're coming at the Type R the wrong way. Of course it's going to spin the tires a bit and wheel hop, it's still FWD and it's still going to be slower zero-to-60 than rivals such as the Focus RS and the Subaru STi or even a rear-wheel drive BMW M2. It's not designed to go drag racing, just not the platform for it. But when in your daily drive or on the track are going to be stomping on the throttle from a standstill and going as fast as you can to 60 mph and then suddenly stomping on the brakes? Never. That's why I strongly dislike 0-60 times. It's a useless statistic. Top-gear passing, high and low speed handling, midrange torque, shifter and clutch feel, how freely a vehicle revs... all of those are more important than 0-60 times. You may not like that off the line scrabbling for grip, but other than that, the Civic Type R is superior to the driving dynamics of the S2000 in every way. It handles better, it's faster from a roll, it's faster on track, it has gobs more torque, it's lighter (yes, it's true!), and it has way more functionality. You won't be disappointed if you actually gave it a fair shot and approach the car for what it is and not looking at it having already made up your mind that rear-wheel drive is superior. You're neglecting the fact that the Civic Type R is the fastest FWD production vehicle ever around a track and it rides way more comfortably than cars such as the Focus RS.
how is the CTR lighter than the s2k?

and common physics dictates that turning tires on the same wheels having to power the car, and having the weight of the car transfer AWAY from the drive wheels means it's not superior.

Is it April fools already?
 

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I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did read your initial reviews. I think you're coming at the Type R the wrong way. Of course it's going to spin the tires a bit and wheel hop, it's still FWD and it's still going to be slower zero-to-60 than rivals such as the Focus RS and the Subaru STi or even a rear-wheel drive BMW M2. It's not designed to go drag racing, just not the platform for it. But when in your daily drive or on the track are going to be stomping on the throttle from a standstill and going as fast as you can to 60 mph and then suddenly stomping on the brakes? Never. That's why I strongly dislike 0-60 times. It's a useless statistic. Top-gear passing, high and low speed handling, midrange torque, shifter and clutch feel, how freely a vehicle revs... all of those are more important than 0-60 times. You may not like that off the line scrabbling for grip, but other than that, the Civic Type R is superior to the driving dynamics of the S2000 in every way. It handles better, it's faster from a roll, it's faster on track, it has gobs more torque, it's lighter (yes, it's true!), and it has way more functionality. You won't be disappointed if you actually gave it a fair shot and approach the car for what it is and not looking at it having already made up your mind that rear-wheel drive is superior. You're neglecting the fact that the Civic Type R is the fastest FWD production vehicle ever around a track and it rides way more comfortably than cars such as the Focus RS.
While I agree with the first part of your statement and the 0-60 part, I disagree with the comparison to the S2000. S2000 weights 28xx lbs while the CTR weighs like 31xx with the distribution of the weights being totally different. Sure, the CTR may be faster than the S2000 but from a pure driving "feel", it is no where near the S2000 feel. Some of us don't necessary care for it to be faster but would rather have a car that has great driving feel.
 

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While I agree with the first part of your statement and the 0-60 part, I disagree with the comparison to the S2000. S2000 weights 28xx lbs while the CTR weighs like 31xx with the distribution of the weights being totally different. Sure, the CTR may be faster than the S2000 but from a pure driving "feel", it is no where near the S2000 feel. Some of us don't necessary care for it to be faster but would rather have a car that has great driving feel.
If that's the case, why bother with any modern car? None of them really offer raw feel and speed in this price category. And the Integra Type R was a way better driver's car with more feel than the S2000. I don't understand why the S2000 gets so much praise. In stock form, the AP2 was slow unless you revved the piss out of it and it kind of rolled around corners.

Weird, I thought I'd read that the last of the S2000s grew in weight to over 3000 lbs. Regardless, that's a negligible difference in weight.
 

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how is the CTR lighter than the s2k?

and common physics dictates that turning tires on the same wheels having to power the car, and having the weight of the car transfer AWAY from the drive wheels means it's not superior.

Is it April fools already?
The only fool is you for missing the point of my post. In raw 0-60 times, yes a RWD car will have better traction but who cares in real world situations. That's not what the CTR is built to do.
 

shihabp79

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I enjoy hearing your feedback. I feel that one test drive was enough, to me the car is very good but is not exactly what I was looking for. Based on that I'm moving on. For some people like myself, the greatest FWD hatchback on earth is not better than the RWD sportscar they already have parked in their garage. Maybe in a year or two I'll come back to the Type R, when Honda makes some changes and improvements, but for now I'm happy with my decision.

BTW, my S2000 weighed 2855 lbs on the garage scales last time I drove Roebling Road Raceway (each wheel was within 6 lbs of each other), what does your CTR weigh and how evenly is the weight distributed?
A negligible amount more but weight distribution doesn't matter so much if the steering is made neutral. I've owned a Miata, Lotus Elise, ITR, a half a dozen other sports cars and trust me, the CTR outhandles all of them. I've never noticed it understeer though when the weather warms up, I'll be going on track to test the limits :)

Good luck! I hope you find that worthy sports car to replace the S2000 if you don't decide to just keep her.
 


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The only fool is you for missing the point of my post. In raw 0-60 times, yes a RWD car will have better traction but who cares in real world situations. That's not what the CTR is built to do.
nobody is arguing the 0-60 bit, it's the rest of it. handling is subjective. You tried to tell the OP that he's wrong, on a totally subjective matter. and even on that point, I don't know how many people would argue the CTR is a better handling car than the s2k. The only objective claim you made, that it's lighter, was proven wrong. 300 pounds is not negligible on track, which you argue is the point of the car. I don'tt think it'd be a great idea to have Shaq sitting in their passenger seat as they try to set a PR on track..

not trying to get in a flame war on the internet, and sorry if you construed the april fools joke as a personal dig. Thought maybe you were trolling or forgot an /s somewhere.
 

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nobody is arguing the 0-60 bit, it's the rest of it. handling is subjective. You tried to tell the OP that he's wrong, on a totally subjective matter. and even on that point, I don't know how many people would argue the CTR is a better handling car than the s2k. The only objective claim you made, that it's lighter, was proven wrong. 300 pounds is not negligible on track, which you argue is the point of the car. I don'tt think it'd be a great idea to have Shaq sitting in their passenger seat as they try to set a PR on track..

not trying to get in a flame war on the internet, and sorry if you construed the april fools joke as a personal dig. Thought maybe you were trolling or forgot an /s somewhere.
You are wrong on all accounts except my saying it was lighter weight, which is something I copped to. The CTR is barely 200 lbs more, not 300 and yes, that is negligible for all intents and purposes. Doesn't affect fuel economy nor does it affect handling or acceleration from a roll compared to the S2000. Handling isn't subjective, either. The CTR has done 1.03g in instrumented testing and the S2000 does .90g; that is a measurable difference. If I got in both cars and had equal seat time, I'd get around a track faster in the CTR. The S2000 has the same skidpad numbers as the Integra Type R and I can tell you for sure that the CTR outhandles the ITR as I've been on track numerous times with the latter.

I didn't tell him he was wrong, just that his approach to the CTR wasn't giving it a fair shot then wished him good luck. How the heck was what I said flaming/trolling? I spent a long, thoughtful paragraph listing my reasons coming from real-world track experience driving a relatively large variety of cars that were FWD, AWD and RWD. We both misconstrued things, I guess.
 
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lawl

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You are wrong on all accounts except my saying it was lighter weight, which is something I copped to. The CTR is barely 200 lbs more, not 300 and yes, that is negligible for all intents and purposes. Doesn't affect fuel economy nor does it affect handling or acceleration from a roll compared to the S2000. Handling isn't subjective, either. The CTR has done 1.03g in instrumented testing and the S2000 does .90g; that is a measurable difference. If I got in both cars and had equal seat time, I'd get around a track faster in the CTR. The S2000 has the same skidpad numbers as the Integra Type R and I can tell you for sure that the CTR outhandles the ITR as I've been on track numerous times with the latter.

I didn't tell him he was wrong, just that his approach to the CTR wasn't giving it a fair shot then wished him good luck. How the heck was what I said flaming/trolling? I spent a long, thoughtful paragraph listing my reasons coming from real-world track experience driving a relatively large variety of cars that were FWD, AWD and RWD. We both misconstrued things, I guess.
AP1 s2000: 2809 (according to wikipedia)
FK8 CTR: 3111 (according to car and driver)

it's a full 300. plus maybe a buffet lunch :)

But this is nitpicking. Agree to disagree I guess. My point was he prefers his small RWD roadster and the CTR was supposed to replace it. I totally agree if I had the financial capability I would not buy a new Accord, and perhaps the example of the CTR he drove was bad. My main point is even if the s2k is slower around the track and has less grip (which i totally believe.. turbo vs NA 2.0 liter motors) you can't replace the feel of a 2 door 2 seater rwd roadster with a fwd hatchback.

I could get around the track faster in a fwd celica GT-S than my miata I'm pretty sure, but the miata just feels... better even if I'm objectively slower.

In the end I'm probably blowing smoke out my ass given I've not even driven a CTR, but his experience sounded like the kind of disappointment one would experience if they wanted to replace their s2k with a CTR.

anyway, cheers
 

shihabp79

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Points taken but OP has an AP2 which weigh closer to 2900 lbs. I’ve owned and AutoXed an NB Miata, stock for stock it’s pretty close to a last-gen Celica GT-S. Btw, the most raw two-seat experience you’ll get is a Lotus Elise/Exige. But that car is absolutely worthless off the track.
 

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his car is an ap1. (ap1 taillights)

source- had an ap1.5 (ap2 motor in an otherwise ap1) track car. yellow, too. I miss it :(.

I'm HOPING (but I'm a pessimist so I've been trying to temper my expectations) my experience will be more like yours than his. My CTR would actually have to replace my 2 door roadster. Wife will only let me have 1 manual toy ..
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