My friend blew his motor on TSP stage 2

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amirza786

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I've been tuning cars, mostly turbo 4 cylinders, in the 30 years I've been driving (man, I feel old after that confession).

The true point on if it's wise to tune something or not is to examine the platform, because it's extremely variable.

The Si is a fantastic car, but I'd call it a handling platform. If you're shooting for reliable horsepower, the 1.5T is not the best way. From the dual mass flywheel, pitiful OEM clutch, higher ethanol mix causing injector issues, and fuel system headroom (this one plagues the FK8 too), there are lots of things that ramp the risk of failure up.

One guy above was mentioning what camps people are in regarding their risk:reward for tuning. I'd say that is completely dependent on the platform you're referencing. Comparing extreme cases of a very tune-friendly engine vs. one that is not, I would push a Mitsubishi 4B11 substantially harder than I would push a Subaru EJ257. The Mitsu will make 500whp reliably on stock internals. The Subaru will be a ticking time bomb at even 350whp.

Step down to FWD cars in the mid 25k range, the 10th gen Si is a great handler, but I've been in some that had slipping clutches off the dealer lot. In contrast, the VW GTI is not as handling focused, but a DSG version can make much more power than the Si reliably and without hiccup. The Si will be lots more fun on track. The GTI will be a lot faster on the highway tuned with no drama.
That's pretty much what @gtman @PowerPerLiter and a few of us have been trying to say to the newcomers to this forum who just bought and joined or now after owning for a year or two have the urge for more power. Sometimes the car is not even off the dealer lot for an hour and posts start coming in like "What Bolt-on and mods should I do?" or "I want make 350 whp, what's the best way?" They watch some youtube videos and see people like Eman pushing 400 plus whp and they want to do that as well.

Bottom line, we always try to stress that first and foremost, this is an economy engine. If you want to push over 250 whp, you are going to need to build out the engine, clutch, ECU in some cases, fuel delivery, and I am even hearing of transmissions going boom so possibly that as well. My advice to people who buy this car and pay $25K, unless you are an experienced modder who has money to blow, find a used Focus ST or RS or a Type R. Or, wait 10 years when this is your weekend car. If you need a bit of extra power, just go with Ktuner's base tunes or TSP's stage 1 tune, but be aware that you may need to upgrade your clutch if you constantly use the maps that boost above 22 psi (like TSP's stage 1 map 3). Bolt-ons? I say stay away from them except maybe a good quality Performance Intercooler (Mishimoto, PRL etc).

I had the 2018 Si for 1 year (and 3 months :)) and I drove it both with TSP's stage 1 tune and stock, and IMO it was fun stock
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Yea i never used either. I know that both are popular oils but i see them as top tier synthetics, nothing special.

Now there are top tier synthetics with a bit extra that i see as special, like amsoil ss and the plant based oil i linked. Pennzoil, quaker and mobil all make a special formulation which is 1-3% off Amsoil ss wear protection in testing, i use the mobil formulation simply due to availability and costs. (Im not saying all mobil oil is same, quite opposite) I get it for 20-25$/5Qts.

If you are in Motul use this 5W30 Motul 300V Ester Core 4T Racing Oil. Dont know enough about LiquiMoly.

But if i were racing id try that plant based oil for sure, it loses only 0.6% shear pressure/wear protection at 275F, thats 1/10th of Amsoils or 1/20th of my Mobil FS.


Do you have data or remember how much? They did the same thing in fa20dit world until they settled to an 350wtq “safe zone” number. It is believed many motors were blown due to too much torque too soon or simply too much torque.

Still tuners have stock internals bigger turbo setups going strong at 500/425 (15k miles and going) and many customers at 400/400+ with no issues.. all custom tunes, no canned ots stuff. At same time knowing that is out there makes me feel better about my 360/360. :cool:

@gtman i never used anything ever w reg fuel. But with e51 now i use 1/4 of recommended dose of top lube. I had a weird what sounded like electrical buzz/hum i could only hear when first switched to e51 that either resolved on its own or w help from top lube. I just add 1/2oz w every fuel-up. Dunno if it actually helps anything other than than my peace of mind.
the email that we got didn’t specify how much torque was reduced. But the difference between both was night and day
 

gtman

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OK guys, bear with me... this post will be long. Hopefully I won't put anyone to sleep.;)

For quite a few reasons, I think I have a good grasp on tuning for this platform. I've been here since 2015 and have seen pretty much everything. I've been tuned for going on two years and have used both major platforms for my tuning. I've written extensively about my ongoing experiences living with both Hondata and KTuner. And I started and am keeping tabs on the communities tuning experience/reliability survey/study. OK, now that my background has been established let's get into it.

So, how "safe" is tuning on the 1.5T?

It depends. Drive a base tune in a non-abusive way and maintain your car and I think you should be fine. Push this platform with full bolt ons and tune it to the 'enth degree and your safety margin is diminished. Abuse the high power tune and there's a strong possibility of a catastrophic failure at some point.

Here's the scenario where I have little doubt a tune will be reliable. And I'll use my own situation as the example. I'm certain many others (if not most here) are in the same boat.

I love my car but wanted a bit more power and a bit better throttle response and less lag. I wasn't concerned about ultimate power or bragging rights about hp or tq.

I generally don't drive all that differently tuned compared to untuned. It's just that when I press the throttle tuned, I get much more fun results. And sometimes that extra power has helped me avoid a collision.

I'm not adding Injen intakes or downpipes or BOV's. I'm not using a high ethanol blend or power launching my car, doing burnouts, playing with anti-lag or gunning it everywhere I go.

I just wanted an improved driving experience over stock and that's what I have. I think many more members here have similar goals and experiences.

Also, I think KTuner's on the fly three map setup makes a huge difference. By having a lower power tune, a moderate tune and a higher power tune, you have flexibility. That flexibility allows you to choose mild or wild with a few button presses and that saves on wear and tear.

Lastly, maybe some of it is age. When I was in my 20's driving muscle cars, I drove like a maniac and got tickets out the wazoo. These days, I still like to go fast but am more prudent about when and where I do it.

So to sum up, can tunes be safe? Yes. Can tunes potentially cause disasters? Also yes.

So how do you maximize reliability and minimize potential issues?

1. You need to respect the power and the potential it has to do bad things.

2. IMO you need to learn a bit about the ins and outs of tuning before you buy a KTuner or Hondata. Be an educated tuning consumer.

3. You need to understand that every time you add a bolt on, or up boost and torque or change to a higher ethanol content fuel, there's potential for issues. And when you do make changes to a tune be sure to monitor to see if fuel trims and other parameters are still in the safe zone.

The bottom line, IMO, is that tuning can be, by far, the most amazing mod. It also has the potential to be the most destructive, if you push things too far.
 
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amirza786

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OK guys, bear with me... this post will be long. Hopefully I won't put anyone to sleep.;)

For quite a few reasons, I think I have a good grasp on tuning for this platform. I've been here since 2015 and have seen pretty much everything. I've been tuned for going on two years and have used both major platforms for my tuning. I've written extensively about my ongoing experiences living with both Hondata and KTuner. And I started and am keeping tabs on the communities tuning experience/reliability survey/study. OK, now that my background has been established let's get into it.

So, how "safe is tuning on the 1.5T?

It depends. Drive a base tune in a non-abusive way and maintain your car and I think you should be fine. Push this platform with full bolt ons and tune it to the 'enth degree and your safety margin is diminished. Abuse the high power tune and there's a strong possibility of a catastrophic failure at some point.

Here's the scenario where I have little doubt a tune will be reliable. And I'll use my own situation as the example. I'm certain many others (if not most here) are in the same boat.

I love my car but wanted a bit more power and a bit better throttle response and less lag. I wasn't concerned about ultimate power or bragging rights about hp or tq.

I generally don't drive all that differently tuned compared to untuned. It's just that when I press the throttle tuned, I get much more fun results. And sometimes that extra power has helped me avoid a collision.

I'm not adding Injen intakes or downpipes or BOV's. I'm not using a high ethanol blend or power launching my car, doing burnouts, playing with anti-lag or gunning it everywhere I go.

I just wanted an improved driving experience over stock and that's what I have. I think many more members here have similar goals and experiences.

Also, I think KTuner's on the fly three map setup makes a huge difference. By having a lower power tune, a moderate tune and a higher power tune, you have flexibility. That flexibility allows you to choose mild or wild with a few button presses and that saves on wear and tear.

Lastly, maybe some of it is age. When I was in my 20's driving muscle cars, I drove like a maniac and got tickets up the wazoo. These days, I still like to go fast but am more prudent about when and where I do it.

So to sum up, can tunes be safe? Yes. Can tunes potentially cause disasters? Also yes.

So how do you maximize reliability and minimize potential issues?

1. You need to respect the power and the potential it has to do bad things.

2. IMO you need to learn a bit about the ins and outs of tuning before you buy a KTuner or Hondata. Be an educated tuning consumer.

3. You need to understand that every time you add a bolt on, or up boost and torque or change to a higher ethanol content fuel, there's potential for issues. And when you do make changes to a tune be sure to monitor to see if fuel trims and other parameters are still in the safe zone.

The bottom line, IMO, is that tuning can be, by far, the most amazing mod. It also has the potential to be the most destructive, if you push things too far.
There is not much I can add to this except to say, if you really and truly care about your warranty, it is best to stay stock. Any type of tuning, including the canned tunes have the potential to void your warranty IF something were to go wrong. Thought I would just get that out there
 

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Amirza, I totally agree. I've always told people when they've PM'ed me about warranty, to go into tuning assuming your powertrain warranty is gone. You can't rely on returning it to stock after a disaster and praying that Honda can't see it's been tuned.

So there's the rub. Can you wait 5-6 years to up the fun factor or do you tune earlier and accept the risk that your tuned car may or may not be reliable.

I chose to tune early knowing I'm going to stay near stock with a base tune. If I was adding bolt ons and pushing a higher power tune, I probably would be nervous every time I went WOT. ;)
 


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amirza786

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I have been looking at these off and on for my dad and a friend. I think it's probably too "young" for my dad, which is super unfortunate. I would love if he had a car this cool again!

My friend has an FR-S, and is thinking of replacing it soon. He drives a lot of miles annually. Before the FR-S, he had an 8th gen K20 Si sedan, and it was very easy to modify that car and sustain reliability. He was initially pissed in 2017 when I got the FK8, because he wanted one first, and doesn't want us to have the same car, haha. He also thought about saving a lot of money, so we went and drove a new 10th gen Si on the dealer lot. This is the one that I've mentioned before that slipped in 6th gear- Honda dealer new, stock. He couldn't believe it, and asked me to drive it. Sure enough, clutch was slipping in 6th in a brand new car.

We both agree that the 10th gen is such a nicer driving platform compared to the 8th gen, but I think knowing him, the Si is going to be a heartbreaker. He's going to want to modify it, and the economy engine roots and aforementioned maladies from the earlier post means he needs to just get an R, because he's not going to get what he wants from the Si. This is also super unfortunate! I want my buddy or my dad to get an Si, so I can drive it too!
 

amirza786

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I have been looking at these off and on for my dad and a friend. I think it's probably too "young" for my dad, which is super unfortunate. I would love if he had a car this cool again!

My friend has an FR-S, and is thinking of replacing it soon. He drives a lot of miles annually. Before the FR-S, he had an 8th gen K20 Si sedan, and it was very easy to modify that car and sustain reliability. He was initially pissed in 2017 when I got the FK8, because he wanted one first, and doesn't want us to have the same car, haha. He also thought about saving a lot of money, so we went and drove a new 10th gen Si on the dealer lot. This is the one that I've mentioned before that slipped in 6th gear- Honda dealer new, stock. He couldn't believe it, and asked me to drive it. Sure enough, clutch was slipping in 6th in a brand new car.

We both agree that the 10th gen is such a nicer driving platform compared to the 8th gen, but I think knowing him, the Si is going to be a heartbreaker. He's going to want to modify it, and the economy engine roots and aforementioned maladies from the earlier post means he needs to just get an R, because he's not going to get what he wants from the Si. This is also super unfortunate! I want my buddy or my dad to get an Si, so I can drive it too!
There are going to be some that disagree with me, but that is why Honda designed the Type R and Si in very distinct niches. The Civic Si as I see it, is Honda's cheap gateway into fun. It's reliable, economical, with some real sportiness. But even with the LSD, tighter suspension and other options that appear on more expensive cars, it's still an economy car at it's heart. The Type R on the other hand, is a full on sports car. There is nothing economy about it. Being among one of the fastest FWD cars is no joke!

If you friend is looking for an inexpensive car to have some occasional fun, and maybe get a little more power out of it up the road (little is the key here), than this is a great car for him. If he is looking for power and high performance and has the money, the Type R is the way to go. This is assuming he is purely a Honda enthusiast
 


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Ok our clutches definitely seem to be a weak point but why were you under load in 6th gear on a brand new clutch to begin with? Isn’t that a recipe for slipping?
 

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I don’t think our engines are as weak as people are making them out to be. It is by no means in the same league as the k/b series, or n54s etc. and IT IS without a doubt an ECONOMY engine. But my fellow civic x’ers relax.

The platform is still relatively new, how many blown engines have been truly inspected to find the cause of failure/weakpoints? 3 maybe 4. I figure it’s only the few pros/shops who destroyed their own. I doubt many people who blew their engines are going to pay a shop to truly take time to find cause of failure when they are focused on sourcing a new engine and rebuilding. I mean has anyone out there with a blown engine tested the injectors? I know pookie said he’d tell his friend to. And I know a few stock cars needed theirs replaced.

Someone who knows absolutely nothing about cars can buy a civic x and gain 100torque with less than a grand spent. That’s crazy, of course there’s going to be some blown engines especially at the beginning before all weak points are identified. Maybe we are just still above what should be safe torque limits, a canned tune(tsp 2) is advertised at 327tq. Maybe 315 is our torque limit and we can actually go fbo with bigger turbos and just be tuned to under 315tq and have a completely realiable car(fingers crossed that’s my plan). Maybe they’re all ticking time bombs after 250torque, who really knows for sure :dunno:

I’ve been tuned for 2 years(55k miles)
Fbo for 40k miles
Custom tuned for 30k
E40 for 15k miles. Maybe I’ll make it to 150k maybe I’ll blow up next week. Hopefully I won’t but I’ll let you all know so we can continue adding data. I don’t recommend anyone mod their car for performance without being prepared to deal with a blown engine. I’ve been “prepared” for my engine to blow since I first bought a Ktuner. And at my current levels I know it’s definitely a possibility. I plan to go w1 or maybe another turbo option mostly because I feel our super tiny torque loving turbo is a killer I mean 330+ torque that quick/early in rpm band in a 1.5liter economy engine!!
Shheeeesh! I told my tuner keep me away from those torque numbers lol. Anyway just giving my opinion which we are all entitled to and anything I said as a question was serious, anybody with a blown engine test injectors or find a specific reason for the failure?
 

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I just happen to have an email exchange w my tuner about this. Basically he said he believes most failures are due to lack of or failures in fueling AND when youre at the limit any small failure can lead to catastrophic engine failure.

He has customers running 400-430wtq on oem internals for 20-30k. But at same time his own second wrx blew w 400wtq. His first didnt at 375. So who knows what the limit is, it isnt a set number.

He also added that wrx oem turbo is capable of 500wtq at low rpm but he limits his custom tunes to 350wtq @3000rpm+. So just like you asked your tuner, one should expect a tuner to know what is a relatively safe range.

Also he mentioned that of the 1000s of cars he tunes he kept a spreadsheet of ppl who report back of blown engines and so far out of 2 dozen failures or so 16 where catless setups and the onl 5 where catted exhausts. He says catless has a tendency to boost creep and run out of fuel, which is why he wont tune catless cars unless with ewg.
 

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I don’t think our engines are as weak as people are making them out to be. It is by no means in the same league as the k/b series, or n54s etc. and IT IS without a doubt an ECONOMY engine. But my fellow civic x’ers relax.

The platform is still relatively new, how many blown engines have been truly inspected to find the cause of failure/weakpoints? 3 maybe 4. I figure it’s only the few pros/shops who destroyed their own. I doubt many people who blew their engines are going to pay a shop to truly take time to find cause of failure when they are focused on sourcing a new engine and rebuilding. I mean has anyone out there with a blown engine tested the injectors? I know pookie said he’d tell his friend to. And I know a few stock cars needed theirs replaced.

Someone who knows absolutely nothing about cars can buy a civic x and gain 100torque with less than a grand spent. That’s crazy, of course there’s going to be some blown engines especially at the beginning before all weak points are identified. Maybe we are just still above what should be safe torque limits, a canned tune(tsp 2) is advertised at 327tq. Maybe 315 is our torque limit and we can actually go fbo with bigger turbos and just be tuned to under 315tq and have a completely realiable car(fingers crossed that’s my plan). Maybe they’re all ticking time bombs after 250torque, who really knows for sure :dunno:

I’ve been tuned for 2 years(55k miles)
Fbo for 40k miles
Custom tuned for 30k
E40 for 15k miles. Maybe I’ll make it to 150k maybe I’ll blow up next week. Hopefully I won’t but I’ll let you all know so we can continue adding data. I don’t recommend anyone mod their car for performance without being prepared to deal with a blown engine. I’ve been “prepared” for my engine to blow since I first bought a Ktuner. And at my current levels I know it’s definitely a possibility. I plan to go w1 or maybe another turbo option mostly because I feel our super tiny torque loving turbo is a killer I mean 330+ torque that quick/early in rpm band in a 1.5liter economy engine!!
Shheeeesh! I told my tuner keep me away from those torque numbers lol. Anyway just giving my opinion which we are all entitled to and anything I said as a question was serious, anybody with a blown engine test injectors or find a specific reason for the failure?
I totally agree with you. It's not weak. It handles easily what it was designed for and more. Pumping 205 HP (187 WHP) stock is pretty good. So I'm not one of those who called it weak. Economy yes. Weak, no. But we are definitely slowly finding it's limits. What we were trying to say is, if you are new to modding, don't rush in without doing lots of research
 

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@FlexRex yea didn’t mean to make the torque number thing so definitive as cause of failure. Good note about the small failure while pushing limits. A stock car with failing injectors will probably show signs before real damage occurs while an injector starts flowing less fuel during wot on fbo E40 that may cause some serious problems. Also interesting note about catless
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