Manual 1.5t delayed until 2017 model year

[Kaptain75329]

This option, a H.O. 1.5T, would also totally take off the table any potential for modding, like the K series has enjoyed.

Yep, I'm with you on this one. The Si being targeted to enthusiasts, this could very well be a genuine consideration for the company. On the other hand, maybe capping the performance might make sense: with the Type-R on the horizon, Honda might be looking to snag dollars that would otherwise wind up in the aftermarket -- and they get to do it in a way that wouldn't kill Si sales numbers because it would still be improved over the last gen car. (Sure, some purists might pass, but I think a strong case could be made inside Honda's corporate meeting rooms that sales are likely to increase either way given the Civic's wider appeal over the previous version.)

Which brings me to another thing....this MT for the 1.5T...if it doesn't (which I am sure it doesn't) have LSD, then that can also add in two more possibilities:
-if the Si gets 1.5T it ain't getting LSD this time around!
or
-This drivetrain is NOT for the SI, as Honda *hopefully* intends to maintain the LSD feature of the Si...no matter what engine they SURPRISE us with.

I don't agree. A Limited Slip Differential (LSD) isn't exclusively tied to engine type or transmission. I suspect Honda will include it in the Si regardless of engine, given the history with the car's drivetrain packaging. If there's a reason LSD cannot be on an Si with the 1.5t VTEC, I haven't seen one. (I suppose it's possible, but LSD missing on the Si on this generation of the Civic would go against Honda's stated vision for the car on this product cycle.)

Also, as the K series may be "aging", there is still plenty left in it. Honda has just revised it for the Civic, and they revised it for the Accord. No reason why they couldn't go full-on with a full VTEC EarthDreams K24 variant that gets 220-230HP like they have done with K variants in the past.

This is a really excellent point -- it's one that didn't occur to me, and I don't think this possibility would be at all crazy. It makes sense that Honda might consider tuning this engine to better compete with the competition I named in my previous post. There's certainly more headroom over the 1.5t to do it. And with the Civic going upmarket, I could see this actually happening. For my part, I'd prefer the 1.5t to get great performance without killing my wallet at the pump, but no way in hell I say no to an Si built with those specs.

Again, too soon to tell on all this, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what Honda does with the Si as I'm quite interested in picking one up myself.

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[takemorepills]

I don't agree. A Limited Slip Differential (LSD) isn't exclusively tied to engine type or transmission. I suspect Honda will include it in the Si regardless of engine, given the history with the car's drivetrain packaging. If there's a reason LSD cannot be on an Si with the 1.5t VTEC, I haven't seen one. (I suppose it's possible, but LSD missing on the Si on this generation of the Civic would go against Honda's stated vision for the car on this product cycle.)

Over the years, Honda's transmissions have generally not had LSD, and in a few circumstances, a variation of a common Honda MT would have LSD included in a different market. Sometimes, the common MT trans housing also could support the optional (and rare) LSD components, sometimes the LSD MT was it's own version altogether.
So, the proposed MT for the 1.5T will need to be designed with a LSD in mind if it is going to serve double duty as a Si and non-Si MT.

Also, regarding the K series deal, I just spent an hour boning up on K series (good read right here: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1402-k-series-engine-family-breakdown/) seems as though the last few generations of K series are totally undesirable as tuner platforms. While that Super Street article doesn't discuss the K24W ED that's in the latest Accord, it appears that there has not been a high performance K series since 2011 MY. Which may bode poorly for any NA K series Si.

 

[firsthonda]

Really think 1.5 T or 2.0t will be Si engine for sure. Or an engine not even on our radar

 

[nathanzachary]

This gives me a lot more to think about. I was sticking with the LX for new daily driver since it is the only one with a 6MT, but some of the features of the higher trim levels are surely nice. I wonder if I should wait, seeing as I will likely be buying the Type-R as well. I don't know that the 2.0 NA is all that bad of an option, though.

 

[10GCivicSi_Vs_5GPrelude]

I've seen Mar 2016 quoted as the likely availability date for the Si.

If we assume that that date is (or at least was) correct, does the short timeframe provide a strong clue as to the likeliest engine choice that Honda will make for the Si?

...or do you think that they are more likely to just take their sweet time and delay the Si by a few months if that's how long it will take to get their preferred engine/transmission ready?

 

[Design]

I've seen Mar 2016 quoted as the likely availability date for the Si.

If we assume that that date is (or at least was) correct, does the short timeframe provide a strong clue as to the likeliest engine choice that Honda will make for the Si?

...or do you think that they are more likely to just take their sweet time and delay the Si by a few months if that's how long it will take to get their preferred engine/transmission ready?

The Si is slated to be released next. First as a sedan then followed shortly after as a coupe. Both are expected to be introduced for MY2016. Look for an announcement at the Geneva or NY Auto Shows (or both).

Anyone paying attention to the market knows that Honda has wanted to step up the potency and fuel economy to compete more effectively. They pulled it off with the base trims and are expected to do the same with Si. They won't quite get the power they want with the 1.5T. And they won't quite get the fuel economy they want with the NA 2.4 - especially when a maxed out 2.0T gets 23/32 MPGs.

That's why it's HIGHLY likely that a conservative 2.0T will be the end result. The hardware will be optimized for efficiency vs. the all-out performance of the HO 2.0T. There will be a big enough gap in power to distance itself from the 1.5T without cannibalizing the CTR. That puts the Si around 220-260 which is well within both the range and efficiency of the 2.0T design.

Not saying we couldn't get the 1.5 or 2.4. But most of us agree that they simply don't make sense in the current automotive climate.

 

[Kaptain75329]

Over the years, Honda's transmissions have generally not had LSD, and in a few circumstances, a variation of a common Honda MT would have LSD included in a different market. Sometimes, the common MT trans housing also could support the optional (and rare) LSD components, sometimes the LSD MT was it's own version altogether.
So, the proposed MT for the 1.5T will need to be designed with a LSD in mind if it is going to serve double duty as a Si and non-Si MT.

With respect, transmissions and LSDs are two entirely separate things -- LSD stands for Limited Slip Differential; this is completely separate part of the drivetrain and it's not a component of the transmission. They work together in the drivetrain to be sure, but they are not integrated. All other things being equal, you don't need a different transmission to add LSD to a car that doesn't have one. From years of working on Mustangs, I know that you can swap out the differential and never "touch" the transmission (in a manner of speaking). Maybe Honda is doing something specific with the Civic since it's FWD, but I can't imagine why that would be the case.

An LSD is basically just a more complex differential that locks up to improve traction:



More info for those interested since the question has come up from others.

Differentials in general:



Front wheel drive:

Also, regarding the K series deal, I just spent an hour boning up on K series (good read right here: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1402-k-series-engine-family-breakdown/) seems as though the last few generations of K series are totally undesirable as tuner platforms. While that Super Street article doesn't discuss the K24W ED that's in the latest Accord, it appears that there has not been a high performance K series since 2011 MY. Which may bode poorly for any NA K series Si.

This was a fun read -- thank you very kindly for sharing that link. After reading this, I'm not so sure "aging" was the right descriptor when I referred to the NA 2.4 engine in my earlier post. Looks to me like these engines have room to grow and it's not hard to see why they are so loved.

 

[Kaptain75329]

The Si is slated to be released next. First as a sedan then followed shortly after as a coupe. Both are expected to be introduced for MY2016. Look for an announcement at the Geneva or NY Auto Shows (or both).

Anyone paying attention to the market knows that Honda has wanted to step up the potency and fuel economy to compete more effectively. They pulled it off with the base trims and are expected to do the same with Si. They won't quite get the power they want with the 1.5T. And they won't quite get the fuel economy they want with the NA 2.4 - especially when a maxed out 2.0T gets 23/32 MPGs.

That's why it's HIGHLY likely that a conservative 2.0T will be the end result. The hardware will be optimized for efficiency vs. the all-out performance of the HO 2.0T. There will be a big enough gap in power to distance itself from the 1.5T without cannibalizing the CTR. That puts the Si around 220-260 which is well within both the range and efficiency of the 2.0T design.

Not saying we couldn't get the 1.5 or 2.4. But most of us agree that they simply don't make sense in the current automotive climate.

I really, really hope you're right. 220-260hp + say 35-40mpg on the highway... sign me up. I'd be happy with 201hp and those highway numbers, but if Honda were to pull off what you're saying, the Si is hands down my next ride.

 

[takemorepills]

With respect, transmissions and LSDs are two entirely separate things -- LSD stands for Limited Slip Differential; this is completely separate part of the drivetrain and it's not a component of the transmission. They work together in the drivetrain to be sure, but they are not integrated. All other things being equal, you don't need a different transmission to add LSD to a car that doesn't have one. From years of working on Mustangs, I know that you can swap out the differential and never "touch" the transmission (in a manner of speaking). Maybe Honda is doing something specific with the Civic since it's FWD, but I can't imagine why that would be the case.

I am guessing that most of your experience with LSD comes from RWD vehicles? Because only 3 Honda's that I know of ever had external LSD..G2 Legends, S2000 and the Acura Vigor. In most all other Honda's the differential is within the transmission housing. So, in that aspect, yes the differential/LSD is definitely a component of the transmission. I am speaking from experience here. Trust me, the diff is within the transmission case on most FWD Honda's.
And yes, if you are lucky, the aftermarket will offer a LSD solution for certain transmissions that did not have LSD. But, either the OEM or the aftermarket needs to offer it. In the case of the OEM, the transmission case needs to be compatible with the OEM type LSD that may be sourced from a different car.
For example, I want a LSD cable trans with my B20Z swap going into a cable clutch chassis. I can choose to source the ultra rare JDM LSD trans, or luckily I can choose to go with a USDM market B series trans and install a Quaife LSD. Luckily, I have that option in my application.

This will be a similar scenario for the new MT. Likely it will be without LSD for the 1.5T application. The aftermarket can choose to develop and offer an LSD...maybe. And maybe you could source an OEM LSD from a different vehicle, but there is no way to know if it will fit until people figure these things out in time.

 

[10GCivicSi_Vs_5GPrelude]

The Si is slated to be released next. First as a sedan then followed shortly after as a coupe. Both are expected to be introduced for MY2016. Look for an announcement at the Geneva or NY Auto Shows (or both).

Anyone paying attention to the market knows that Honda has wanted to step up the potency and fuel economy to compete more effectively. They pulled it off with the base trims and are expected to do the same with Si. They won't quite get the power they want with the 1.5T. And they won't quite get the fuel economy they want with the NA 2.4 - especially when a maxed out 2.0T gets 23/32 MPGs.

That's why it's HIGHLY likely that a conservative 2.0T will be the end result. The hardware will be optimized for efficiency vs. the all-out performance of the HO 2.0T. There will be a big enough gap in power to distance itself from the 1.5T without cannibalizing the CTR. That puts the Si around 220-260 which is well within both the range and efficiency of the 2.0T design.

Not saying we couldn't get the 1.5 or 2.4. But most of us agree that they simply don't make sense in the current automotive climate.

I so hope you are right!!! ...detuned current-gen CTR 2.0T would be just the ticket! ...while overall not a better car, I have to admit that the Focus ST 270 hp / 250 lb-ft (or maybe the other way around) was the only thing that put as big a grin on my face as my own car. If Honda would step up the Civic Si power to the range you describe they would absolutely OWN the sport compact market!!

 

[Kaptain75329]

I am guessing that most of your experience with LSD comes from RWD vehicles?

Yep, you guess correctly - Mustangs and a select few other cars; every last one of them RWD in my experience.

Pointing that out caused me to read up on how Honda packages their drivetrains, particularly because I've never worked on an FWD setup. I was sure I could prove you wrong were I armed with the engineering details, but what I found instead was illuminating: FWD is about as different as I expected, yet it's downright unique in Honda's case:

http://www.performanceforum.com/wesvann/honda/trans/trans.html

http://www.hondacivicforum.com/forum/transmission-differential-39/transmission-faq-57398/

What I found was that the differential and the transmission are indeed built within the same housing on nearly all of Honda's FWD platforms. As far as I can tell from my limited searching, pretty much every Civic since at least 1997 is exclusively built this way. I gather this is one of several reasons the packaging is so tight on their cars.

So, while I'm "technically" correct, so are you: because of the way Honda builds their drivetrains, the transmission would almost certainly need to be modified to accommodate an LSD, if only to make sure everything fits under the hood.

This is weird to me, but not as much as realizing that I dodged a bullet in this discussion - it would have been so easy for you to be a jerk about this and I just want to thank you for being patient and helping me understand the specifics that are unique to Honda.

Thank you for being a class act; I found the reading and learning fun if you can believe that.

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

Check into Quaife. Basically you pop the transmission apart, pull out the stock differential, remove the ring gear and bolt on to the Quaife. Reassemble and go. As far as I can tell, no mods to the case except to reshim so the taper bearings are loaded correctly.

 

[invader]

All this confusion over a supposed Si may be easier to clear up than it seems... Who says there even would be an Si?

"Honda apparently has plans to release a Civic coupe with turbocharged 1.5-liter engine and a manual transmission, and not the SI variant."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ews/a27374/2016-honda-civic-coupe-first-look/

 

[05 Si]

All this confusing over a supposed Si may be easier to clear up than it seems... Who says there even would be an Si?

"Honda apparently has plans to release a Civic coupe with turbocharged 1.5-liter engine and a manual transmission, and not the SI variant."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ews/a27374/2016-honda-civic-coupe-first-look/

That's not saying there won't be an Si model, they are saying they won't be offering the manual transmission on it. Which would be about the stupidest idea Honda has ever had. I hope R&T is talking out of their ass.

It's just poorly written. Not only is there a typo but it makes more sense if you read it with the sentence above and the word I added: "But when we asked Honda whether or not it was considering a a manual transmission in the turbocharged coupe, we were surprised by the answer. Honda apparently has plans to release a Civic coupe the with turbocharged 1.5-liter engine and a manual transmission, and not ON the SI variant."

 

[H_P]

All this confusing over a supposed Si may be easier to clear up than it seems... Who says there even would be an Si?

"Honda apparently has plans to release a Civic coupe with turbocharged 1.5-liter engine and a manual transmission, and not the SI variant."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ews/a27374/2016-honda-civic-coupe-first-look/

Don't know what they're smoking at Road & Track but Honda has always mentioned in its Civic press releases that "Si models" are coming. That includes this latest press release introducing the Civic Coupe. http://www.civicx.com/threads/2016-honda-civic-coupe-preview-event-civicx-live-coverage.741/

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