Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review

exyia

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I wanted to throw in my review as I'm declining a VERY good deal on a Civic Si today after 3 days of thinking about it.

The 2017 Civic Si is a good sports compact on paper, but ultimately lacks personality.

First - If you're not open to criticism (because internetzzzz), then just don't bother reading more. I'm going to be highly critical and honest here. I WANTED to like the Si - I really did.

Second - I am NOT trying to justify my purchase of the Sport Touring Hatch. The money wasn't a problem and I could have traded in and bought the Si if I wanted to.

Third - I've ALWAYS respected Hondas (specifically Si's) very highly. In fact, shortly after I bought my Evo X, I got a chance to drive an 8th gen Si and I actually had a hint of buyer's remorse. K-series Civic Si's are just pure adrenaline unlike anything else. The urgency to rev and the VTEC scream is just absolutely amazing.

Fourth - Let's establish some context:

I own a Sport Touring Hatchback. I have had the chance to push the Sport Touring on an open auto-x course and learn what it's capable of, and I'm going to two more events in the next week. For those that haven't read my impressions, I posted them here:
http://www.civicx.com/threads/exyias-sport-touring-hatchback.9284/page-2

So this is a critical review of the Si trim of the 10th generation Civic. I am already familiar with the 10th generation chassis as an actual owner. I am already a huge FAN of the 10th generation Civic. I can't wait to race this thing more - it is a true underdog to those that underestimate it's lack of "Si" badging.

And so, the question I'm answering today is: is the Si the best Civic? (excluding TypeR for obvious exclusivity and different category).

I've already alluded to the answer being "No", but it's important to have context for this review. I have been living with Honda's BEST offering of Civic.

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ON WITH THE REVIEW

Walking up to the Si...

Lack of LED headlights on US models is a HUGE letdown. I know this might sound petty, but the LED headlights really make the 10th gen Civic look above it's class.

Honda Civic 10th gen Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review 1jbjcmd


Not a deal breaker as swapping them has already been done. If I like the Si, I can still swap them.

The rest of the car looks as expected. I always thought the exhaust outlet looked a little small in pictures, and it still looks a little small in person. It's a detail I'm willing to forget about, as given my driving impressions of the Sport Touring and other press reviews have stated - it's probably too quiet and will be swapped out aftermarket anyway, just so I can better hear the thing on the track.

Not much else to note. Spoiler is a nice combination of sporty but not overly attention grabbing. (I test drove a coupe, as that's the one I'd buy - not a fan of the sedan styling) Still a Civic on the outside. Time to sit inside.

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Now I'm sitting inside - the downgrade from leather in the Sport Touring to fabric is immediately noticeable. I'm actually surprised by how much I noticed it. The arm rest and door trim doesn't have an upscale touch and feel on my elbows anymore - rather it has that typical scratchy fabric feel when rubbed. The details matter, and this is a miss imo Honda. It would have cost you hardly anything Honda...

Honda Civic 10th gen Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review yOGv2w


The seats - as others have praised, the Si seats do strike a great balance of bolstering and comfort. EXCEPT - it's very obvious that it's fabric again. When I would shuffle my back along the seat, it gave a disappointing scratchy feel that's typical of fabric seats. I was hugely disappointed that they didn't at least try some fake leather accents or anything to break the monotony of an all-fabric seat. This is an all-fabric seat that feels all fabric.

Honda Civic 10th gen Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review Honda-Civic-Si-Prototype-interior-seats


So overall, noticeable downgrades from a Sport Touring trim. Not a deal breaker if it drives well, but this trim of Civic has definitely lost it's "premium" feel.

Oh - the shifter feels great, but I'll get to that in driving impressions.

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Now the drive.

Right away - normal mode is useless.

The throttle response is beyond average in normal mode - you would never know you were driving an Si. Now, having a "normal" throttle setting isn't bad, but this is a 1.5L engine - not a big engine. Having this dull/average of a throttle response feels completely unnecessary. I will ALWAYS take the better throttle response, and I bet 90% of people would too.

I was very curious how the powertrain felt, as I detailed in my build thread how I found the Sport Touring powerband to feel narrow. I gave the right pedal a go and my god the throttle response is bland in Normal mode.

That's enough of Normal mode. This might as well be an ECO button, as the only time I would even consider it is on long cruises on the highway. It doesn't matter if it softens the suspension and steering - the throttle response is just so dull that hardly anybody would PREFER that.

(Especially on a manual transmission) I can drive a peppy-throttle response car smoothly/comfortably myself - but you can only drive a laggy-throttle one way: slowly.

So that's it. Enough Normal mode. I already consider this feature (as I somewhat expected) a gimmick. People who want a Sport Compact want to drive the car with their right foot, not by a drive mode button. Give me a peppy throttle and let me drive "normally" myself.

Onto Sport Mode.

The steering felt immediately better - but reminded me how average the steering felt in Normal. This steering in Sport mode felt "just right". Not overly twitchy or heavy...JUST right...again, in a way that should be standard all the time.

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But now that the throttle isn't dead, let's feel it's powerband...

Honda Civic 10th gen Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review 2017-Honda-Civic-Si-Shifter


...andddddddddddd it's linear and undramatic. TOO linear in my tastes. There's just...no drama at all.

They have carried over the drivetrain characteristics from the regular Civics - a smooth and linear shove. That was great for most target consumers of regular Civics, but this is an Si, and it feels the same.

As the rpms climbed, I was hoping to find more...but still nothing. In actuality, my Hondata +6psi basemap hatchback felt just as fast.

The exhaust is too quiet. The whole experience of accelerating was too quiet and without drama. To anyone who's owned/loved previous K-series Si's, this could be a deal breaker.

I couldn't even really tell if the powerband was wider than what I experienced on my Sport Touring out on the course - because everything was just so linear, smooth, and without theater.

This combined with the too-light clutch pedal made me forget how good the shifter was. Yes, the shifter felt fantastic and fixes what I found just average in the shifter on the normal Civic, but all of it was just forgettable when nothing really happens every time you throw that stick.

On WRX's, you get an instant (though shortlived) shove of torque that immediately puts a smile on your face.
On previous gen Si's, you would be grinning from the scream of the VTEC and thrilled as you're throwing the lever as you close in on 8k+ rpm.
On paddleshifted transmissions and even the CVT found in regular Civics, you enjoy this sense of "the shove never stops" and an uninterrupted pull of power.
But on this Si, nothing really happens. It gives a torque shove, but nothing that any other car couldn't deliver.

Is there potential for more? Of course - I expect Hondata and Ktuner basemaps to really wake up this car. But I couldn't help but think that I expected at least A LITTLE more drama stepping up from "regular" civic to Si.

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So then onto the handling and chassis - something that truly surprised me on my Sport Touring enough to give me a second look on what could be done with the Si.

As expected given the throttle and steering response, the shocks feel average and standard on "Normal" mode. It feels exactly like a standard Civic. This would be fine if the Sport mode stiffened the shocks to such an aggressive mode that made for uncomfortable street driving...

...but that's not the case. While it may be comfortable, when you combine it with dull throttle response, the ability to go to a "Normal" mode is mostly a gimmick.

But I'm still curious. Based on the ZF CDC system, this continuously adaptive system had some real potential. I had been talking with my suspension sponsors for my Evo on the technology and what it could entail. 2/3 of my trusted expert opinions thought this was interesting to get on an Si, while the other said it's been unremarkable on BMW's for the past decade and doesn't expect much here either.

I had benefit of the doubt given how well my Sport Touring handled that Honda took the technology for real performance applications - the concept of adjusting damping based on speed, steering, throttle, etc inputs from the ECU has some real merits. I'm very curious, and I'm really hoping it was the real focus of the Si now that the K-series is gone.

Sport mode handling felt MUCH better in damping response. Rebound damping feels JUST right. I don't think I can remember the last time I felt this good low speed rebound from the factory. Compression damping felt good on short, quick steering inputs - but it was the nicely tuned rebound damping that impressed me. Really damping body movement and keeping the rear end planted.

It gave me similar satisfaction of when I finally hit that "just right" setting on my Evo's KW Clubsport 3-way adjustable shocks. This is a VERY nice factory shock for a $24k car.

It's not all perfect though...I wish the spring rates were higher. The car feels like it has a ton of damping, but just above average spring stiffness. Overall it contributes to "Sport" setting feeling good, but "Normal" feeling needlessly boring.

Honda really should have put stiffer springs and damped accordingly. There's more than enough range in this shock to still give "Normal" a comfortable ride while then enhancing the handling potential of "Sport". It really could have been a true dual character setting where Normal could be used for curvy roads, and Sport could be savored/enjoyed on aggressive canyon roads and the track/autox.

Fantastic handling, but also missed opportunity to do more and take it further imo.

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How about the best upgrade item on the Si? The Limited Slip Differential

If you still didn't read my experiences taking my Sport Touring to the open autox track, then you should now.

The benefits of the LSD can't be truly judged on a test drive nor on normal streets.

YES, I felt the LSD working - but only because the OEM tires (non summer option) almost immediately lost grip under power.

Handling starts with TIRES first, with everything else supporting the ultimate grip that the tire has. Sure the LSD might feel great to you and totally worth it - but all I felt was a bandaid to poor ultimate grip. On the few good corners and turns that I managed to take where tires maintained good grip, there was very little influence from the LSD.

Getting an LSD is great groundwork and potential for putting power down, but with such a disappointing powerband and power output from the factory - it remains up to the aftermarket to find what potential there is left in the 1.5L to wake up with this Limited Slip Differential.

I truly think that 90% of owners who never track/autox their Si will never actually NEED an LSD other than to accommodate for potentially cheaper tires they bought - for the very reason that they never track/autox their Si.

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I discussed with the finance and general managers of the dealership on fighting for a better finance rate being a previous customer and being a loyal customer to the dealership, they were willing to fight for it for me - tomorrow, since the Honda finance offices had closed for the day.

So I decided to wait it out for a better rate and head home. No car is needed enough to pass a smarter financial decision that could be had in 24 hours.

And so I climbed back in my Sport Touring hatchback and drove 1.5 hours back home.

Immediately it just felt different - it felt upscale. It felt like a budget Audi A3 that Honda themselves stated as their target for the 10th generation Civic.

I was sitting in quality leather seats and door/armrest trims. I had power seats. I had navigation with both voice and steering wheel controls (did you know you can press Enter and have a quick access menu right infront of you on the dash?). I had automatic headlights and hi-beams (and the much better looking LED headlights). All those small details that I took small mental notes over at first suddenly became welcome and enjoyed touches. It didn't feel like I was in a mid-$20k car anymore.

AND I had Honda Sensing. My god, all I do is set cruise control and just loosely steer my way home. Cars cutting infront, changing lanes, slowing down, speeding up - none of it required attention anymore. I just set cruise control and just go.

This truly felt like a next generation of what you can get in a mere Civic.

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Honda Civic 10th gen Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2017%2F04%2Fhonda-civic-si-coupe-sedan-2017-ny-auto-show


This generation, 2017, Civic Si lacks character and personality on what it wants to be.

If it's trying to be the bargain go-cart-like, beautiful screaming engine note racecar like previous Si's, it's clearly not. We all knew that with the lack of a VTEC engine and a re-hash of a CRV drivetrain.

If it's trying to bring a new twist on the formula of affordable mid-$20k sports car with it's first turbocharged Si, it didn't do enough. The powerband feels almost as linear as a naturally aspirated engine but without any drama or theater when pushed. The mid-range turbo punch isn't exciting enough, and the turbo/tuning is tame and falls off on the high end. The powerband isn't so much too little as it is just smooth and linear.

Ok, so if it's smooth and linear in power delivery and extremely well damped and nimble, they must have created a great bargain, sporty, luxury car.........like an Audi A3....ironic that that was the target all along?

But they failed there too. 100% cloth seats, armrests, trim everywhere felt noticeably "mid-$20k". No Navigation to hide a slow infotainment tablet. No power seats. Old, traditional projector headlights. Lacking a full featureset, and lacking HondaSensing - what really makes this car feel modern.

Sure you have a fancy "Sport" button like luxury cars do, but "Normal" mode is far too dull and "Sport" mode far too "just right" that it's mostly a gimmick that's mostly just toggled on long highway cruises at most.

The button doesn't toggle from sporty to "RAWRHondaSi!".
It changes from "I'm a Civic" to "Now I'm an Si"

The Touring/Sport Touring trims of Civic trade 15% performance and make up for it with loads of features and tech - enough to make it feel more than just a Civic. Enough to make it feel like a bargain Audi A3 they originally targeted.

The Si abandons so many modern features for sporty characteristics that fail to add up to a soulful sport compact. It has all the elements to do it, but it never comes together to create an actual adrenaline filled experience. And you know what that reminds me of?

Honda Civic 10th gen Lacking Character - My (long) Si Review 1200px-2010_Hyundai_Genesis_Coupe_3_--_08-28-2009


A car that has all the elements and checkmarks on the book to create a fun sport compact, but lacks any personality to emotionally lust after.

When it came down to signing to purchase one, I looked at how it may have great potential - great shocks, LSD at this price is a bargain, potential for more power........but I would immediately be putting more money into it to make the Si feel great again - to make the Si feel SPECIAL.

In real world driving, a Touring/Sport Touring Civic is a feature/tech loaded, comfortable, smoothly powerful, nearly self-driving and relaxing car. Much more than people think when they think "Civic".

In real world driving, the 2017 Civic Si is a 205 horsepower, 6 speed manual, nicely tuned suspension, sport compact car. One of many we've had for years, yet nothing to standout nor lust after emotionally.

Honda - Try Harder Please

I feel the Civic Si will get an early update or refresh. Looking back on press reviews only seems to match most of my conclusion - no media/press review is genuinely excited about driving their Si. A sport compact should be fun and emotional...not "this isn't bad for the price" or "this is good value".

Honda either needs to make it edgier or make it more feature rich. While I financially could, I shouldn't have to add to the base formula for it to start feeling special and fun. I really wanted to like this Si - I've always liked Civic Si's, and right now I'm 100% in the market for one as backup sporty daily when I don't want to/can't take my Evo...but this one just lacks personality. The Sport Touring feels like an Audi A3 that handles better without understeer. The Si feels like......a basic $24k sport compact.
 

serif

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Honestly, most of the things you ding it for make it more appealing to me. Given your criticisms of things the Si has never had--the luxury features of the Touring--it seems like you ended up with the car that suits you best. But a different perspective is always welcome, and your writing makes it clear where we may differ in our assessments. Thanks!
 

bikejog

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My god, where did you find time to write such long article? I was just out of college when I started reading it and now I'm ready for social security. :lol:

Seriously, we all know this SI is a dud. Obviously Honda has decided to let the Type-R to compete with the other hot hatches. So stop crying and go out and get yourselves a Type-R. It's the same price as a WRX Limited or GTI Autobahn for gods sake.
 

elusiveaura

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I agree. It's easier to criticize another vehicle when you've just purchased one you really enjoy already. While I respect his opinion, I don't agree with most of it at all. But that's my opinion along with others.

Honestly, most of the things you ding it for make it more appealing to me. Given your criticisms of things the Si has never had--the luxury features of the Touring--it seems like you ended up with the car that suits you best. But a different perspective is always welcome, and your writing makes it clear where we may differ in our assessments. Thanks!
 


TTRPGGeek

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Thanks for the insights OP.

Frankly your comparison might be moot for around here - Touring sedans are sitting on all the local lots but I think digging up a sport touring hatch within a hundred miles might be harder to do than waiting for an SI
 

slowride

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I appreciate the review and you have honestly confirmed pretty much every fear I had about this effort from Honda. Basically my response was "I knew it".
 

Metfanant

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Seems like the Civic Hatch guys aren't too fond of the Si
well...the hatch is ugly, and they need to mostly justify their purchase hehe...
Honestly, most of the things you ding it for make it more appealing to me. Given your criticisms of things the Si has never had--the luxury features of the Touring--it seems like you ended up with the car that suits you best. But a different perspective is always welcome, and your writing makes it clear where we may differ in our assessments. Thanks!
I agree...for the most part I HATE leather seats...and I actually find the the Civic led lights kinda ugly...
 

Billy4202

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Good to get a number of different viewpoints from owners/test drivers. Well-written.

I'm not an Si customer nor do I plan to be, but the review does kinda hit on what I felt instinctively. Good on paper, but kind of emotionless.
 

Aero2001

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Interesting review, and thanks for all the effort and candor. Great stuff.

Having never driven the new Si, I don't know how I'll react to the power delivery, but I'll observe that other modern turbo cars have generated similar criticisms. Sometimes, in an effort to stave off turbo lag and provide better day-to-day drivability, the engines are made so linear that you don't get any high-rpm surge of acceleration, which seems to lack character. Also, turbos can muffle the exhaust sound, which can dull the excitement.

I felt like this about BMW's current 3 Series with the turbo four. Plenty of refined power, but no drama, and practically no sound. It totally lacked character. It was incredibly competent, but boring. The Focus ST sounds great and provides more excitement, but its acceleration is relatively linear compared to some older turbo cars. The Focus RS is apparently more "old school" turbo, which Car & Driver praised in one of their reviews.

So I'm sure you're not the only one with this reaction to the new Si. But I suspect many will like it immediately, and others will love it when they become accustomed to it. Coming from a turbo SAAB, it took me a long time to get used to the peaky VTEC screamer in my TSX, so I'm sure the same will happen to others going from VTEC to turbo.
 


neteng101

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I felt like this about BMW's current 3 Series with the turbo four.
The I6 is a BMW signature engine... as good as they might make any turbo four, it will never be a BMW signature trait kind of engine. Porsche losing the flat-six for a turbo boxer 4 in the new 718 Cayman/Boxster is the same thing - now everyone says how they sound like a Subaru/VW instead. Power/efficiency might be better but no turbo four can compete with signature engines, they just lack real character. Honda's signature is high revving VTEC naturally aspirated engines. Audi's I5 is another signature engine that's going the way of the dodo bird.

Sadly the automotive world has lost a ton of great engine designs and signature traits - in the name of efficiency mostly and fuel mileage numbers. At least Honda hasn't tried to do that insanity that is called auto stop-start that BMW provides today.
 

Psy-q

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L15B7 is the problem. People who drove the K will understand. People who never drove a track oriented powertrain will not.
 

slowride

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L15B7 is the problem. People who drove the K will understand. People who never drove a track oriented powertrain will not.
Before I took delivery of my first 8th Gen Si, I couldn't sleep I was so excited. Those were truly different times.
 

zroger73

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I want to thank @exyia for taking the time to communicate his/her observations and opinions. Whether or not I agree with them, I think it is important to point out that one's observations and opinions are also subject to change over time. I can't imagine how anyone can form an accurate assessment of a vehicle following a short test drive.

My own opinions and observations have changed significantly from the initial 4-hour drive home from the dealer over the course of the next few days. I've found that some initial concerns I had weren't necessarily due to a fault or shortcoming of the vehicle itself, but rather inexperience on my part and the need to adapt to it. Even Mario Andretti would need time to familiarize himself with a different vehicle. Nobody can hop into a different car for the first time and extract anywhere near its full potential until they become intimate with how it responds to various inputs - that takes time and patience.

It's good to hear all the positive and negative feedback, but let your own observations be the deciding factor - as they will almost certainly be different.

One thing I most certainly agree with is the that OEM all-season tires lose grip easily under the Si's torque. The optional Summer tires would be a wise upgrade, if you can find a model that includes them. If not, upgrade the tires as soon as the all-seasons wear out - if not sooner.

Personally, the L15B7 suit my real-world needs just fine. It's lazy off the line for a second or two until boost builds, but that small displacement characteristic is also allowing my 40+ MPG average. I can't take advantage of an 8,000 RPM screamer in my town without getting arrested for competition of speed or reckless driving. The mid-range torque works very well for a sporty, everyday driving experience.

I think many people are misunderstanding the 2017 Si's mission. It's different now - worse for some and better for many. The Si is much more usable in everyday driving. Screaming, high-RPM engines are giving way to lower-displacement, lower-RPM, high-boost turbocharged engines all over - not just within Honda. The experience isn't necessarily worse - just different. I've never cared for engines that spin at Dremel-like speeds, but that's just my little opinion.
 


 


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