The FK8 Wiki: Tuning and technical info

[Jpierro79]

L

You got a graph of your timing through a pull

Mine looks like this

This was during the first week of February. Have made a couple little tweaks here and there

Ive never used the graph before. I’ve always looked for any knock signal and at that data log point it highlights the timing chart where the car is getting its timing from. I make sure if it’s in VTEC and where the cams are positive or negative to adjust the according timing graph. Since there are 8 charts but no reason to adjust all 8 at once. I think the graph method doesn’t relay enough info to get the absolute best timing adjustment. Example The car may like 5 degrees extra at 6500 but only 3 degrees at 4K. It’s extremely time consuming but you can get the absolute most power. It’s not like a lot of people that just add timing a crossed a broad section the when they see knock at any rpm the back the section off. I’d rather discuss this through PM cause I don’t want to give away all my strategies and I don’t want individuals who don’t understand vtec and cam timing properly screwing up their car.

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[kefi]

Since there are 8 charts but no reason to adjust all 8 at once.

For reasons I'm not sure of, Hondata suggests tuning all the maps at the same time by the same absolute amount. Their basemaps reflect this.

 

[kefi]

@Hondata could you chime in on why that is?

 

[AdamD19DFK8]

L

Ive never used the graph before. I’ve always looked for any knock signal and at that data log point it highlights the timing chart where the car is getting its timing from. I make sure if it’s in VTEC and where the cams are positive or negative to adjust the according timing graph. Since there are 8 charts but no reason to adjust all 8 at once. I think the graph method doesn’t relay enough info to get the absolute best timing adjustment. Example The car may like 5 degrees extra at 6500 but only 3 degrees at 4K. It’s extremely time consuming but you can get the absolute most power. It’s not like a lot of people that just add timing a crossed a broad section the when they see knock at any rpm the back the section off. I’d rather discuss this through PM cause I don’t want to give away all my strategies and I don’t want individuals who don’t understand vtec and cam timing properly screwing up their car.

I don't use the graph to tune, just to get an idea of what my timing looks like during a pull. The last 2 rows can take the most advance, but as you know, the car falls into the 170-210% AirC range at the top, so the very last column doesn't get used. 5580 RPM and below doesn't like much advance at all what i've found. If I change any values, I make sure to change that value in every table as well. I don't touch anything to do with Cam Angles as I don't know what I'm doing with that. If I see any KR i'll go back and reduce the area it occurs in every table.

 

[Jpierro79]

I don't use the graph to tune, just to get an idea of what my timing looks like during a pull. The last 2 rows can take the most advance, but as you know, the car falls into the 170-210% AirC range at the top, so the very last column doesn't get used. 5580 RPM and below doesn't like much advance at all what i've found. If I change any values, I make sure to change that value in every table as well. I don't touch anything to do with Cam Angles as I don't know what I'm doing with that. If I see any KR i'll go back and reduce the area it occurs in every table.

My max air charge is a fair amount higher. My iat temp numbers are more reduction cause the psi increase with temp in not linear to air charge. Meaning adding air charge increases the difference between hot and cold psi more drastically. What fuel are you running I run BP fuel also known as Amaco 93octane. Also the two charts below turbo max PA and turbo max TEMP are raised. I’m guessing your seeing boost numbers from about 24 psi tapering to about 19. My rev limit is 7200 also there’s zero issues going this high taget afr is set right. If you want more low end timing you need more fuel. Don’t change fuel under the fuel tab change it under closed loop. Both target lambda. That’s the nice thing is this ECU requires no MAF curve adjustments. Stock fueling is what hondata runs and above 24 psi 13.5-13 is too lean. It makes torque at lower boost that way but causes knock at higher boost cause there’s not enough fuel to cool down some of the air charge. You can give more timing by adding more fuel with higher boost. Last online tip but then it’s got to be via phone. I’m not telling the world everything cause too many people don’t understand all aspects and I don’t want people screwing their cars up then running to me and going “you told me to do this now my engines blown”!! Run 11.8 last two columns from 4080rpm 190 230 load. Use smoothing to even out the chart. I’m not giving away my exact numbers online I don’t run 11.8 across the board like ktuner. It beats up on the hp fuel pump at low rpm. The hpfp driven off the cam so as rpm increases fuel flow with rpm but at lower rpm it can’t keep up and can throw check engine lights for too much drop in pressure levels. I personally haven’t had it happen but I know it does. PM me if you really want to dive into the tuning and we’ll talk on the phone.

 

[123sillyboy123]

I want to share my number from dyno here.
I compared the number of bonestock type r and my FBO no tune ...and then to FBO with hondata basemap... and custom tune..

There is no horsepower gain.. and 20 peak torque gain.

The horsepower curve did shift up from 2000rpm to 5600rpm but max horsepower stay the same. No gain at all.
Torque curve also shift up and gain 20.

From FBO to FBO custom tune.. i gain 60whp and 80 peak torque.. which i can push about 20 more on each number but i want to stay on the safe side

 

[Jpierro79]

I want to share my number from dyno here.
I compared the number of bonestock type r and my FBO no tune ...and then to FBO with hondata basemap... and custom tune..

There is no horsepower gain.. and 20 peak torque gain.

The horsepower curve did shift up from 2000rpm to 5600rpm but max horsepower stay the same. No gain at all.
Torque curve also shift up and gain 20.

From FBO to FBO custom tune.. i gain 60whp and 80 peak torque.. which i can push about 20 more on each number but i want to stay on the safe side

You can go up in HP without issues. Just not torque. It’s Newton’s law of motion. The slower the engine rotates the more force is applied to rods and bearings. Low rpm high torque blows engines and over revving. Heat and a few other things. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Look at it this way if you try to push someone who is standing still it requires more force to move them. Like lower rpm engine requires more force to accelerate the rpm. If a person is walking away from you it’s much easier to push them and they’ll move just like higher rpm requires less torque to make power. The rpm limitations come in due to fuel cam type the motors ability to move air ect. As long as you keep your torque limiter low enough you can’t over power the car which is why with FBO no tune you can’t make more power. The torque limits are very low. Besides the way the cam timing in these cars unless you change it it won’t make any real power till after 3500 rpm. No matter where you put vtec or ignition timing.

 

[123sillyboy123]

You can go up in HP without issues. Just not torque. It’s Newton’s law of motion. The slower the engine rotates the more force is applied to rods and bearings. Low rpm high torque blows engines and over revving. Heat and a few other things. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Look at it this way if you try to push someone who is standing still it requires more force to move them. Like lower rpm engine requires more force to accelerate the rpm. If a person is walking away from you it’s much easier to push them and they’ll move just like higher rpm requires less torque to make power. The rpm limitations come in due to fuel cam type the motors ability to move air ect. As long as you keep your torque limiter low enough you can’t over power the car which is why with FBO no tune you can’t make more power. The torque limits are very low. Besides the way the cam timing in these cars unless you change it it won’t make any real power till after 3500 rpm. No matter where you put vtec or ignition timing.

When you said low rpm high torque.. how low do you mean??

 

[kefi]

Looks like Hondata released some more basemaps to finally fill in the gaps for 93 octane. They also appear to have gone back and added some VTEC engagement changes that were not there in early January. I've gone ahead and redone my comparison between all of them.

91 octane
Basemap (91octane-st): (the mass majority of changes)

• catalyst protection temperature decrease from 1000 to 200 (Fahrenheit? not sure what this actually changes)
• set torque limit table to 600 across the board (effectively making it never come into play - you shouldn't use this table either until your torque request maps go past 600)
• set air charge limit table. the stock equiv shows 1536% across the board.. maybe stock uses the torque limit and we use air charge limit instead? maybe it's a mistake?
• fuel trim increase from 0% to 4.5% (compensates for america's 10% ethanol in all our fuels, this can be disabled in the mods window)
• advance intake cam while spooling by 5 degrees
• advance intake cam while VTEC by 4 degrees at 6500rpm and 5 degrees at 7000rpm
• make the minimum lambda table the same as the target lambda tables, so all three lambda tables are the same. (note: this means Hondata mostly uses the stock AFRs. they didn't come up with their own numbers, contrary to popular belief)
• slightly leaner lambda (AFR) at max RPM/air charge (richest it will ever go is 11.47:1 now)
• disable P0299 turbocharger underboost problem (gets thrown when the BP isn't reaching BPCMD)
• boost cut increased from 2.86 to 4
• totally remap the turbo max ratio (PA) table, slightly remap the turbo max ratio (temp) table
  
  
  
  
  
• increases torque request in sport and +R gear 3-6 (all gears in comfort are stock) after 69% TPS. max torque changed from 425nm to 480nm. notably, torque request is equal regardless of RPM at WOT. also shown is the improved throttle response map, which changes a lot but has the same max torque.
  
  
  
  
• reduces max knock retard step to -2.25 across the board instead of -3
• advance non-VTEC ignition by 0.75 degrees across the board
• hondata traction control enabled by default

Catless downpipe (91octane-dp-st):

• Disable p0420
• Various exhaust cam/exhaust cam (VTEC) changes
  
  
• Various intake cam changes
  
  
  
  
• Advance exhaust cam (spool) by 5 degrees
• Advance intake cam (spool) by 5 degrees
• Decrease max air charge
  
  

High-flow catted downpipe (91octane-hfc-st):

• Advance ignition by 2.25 degrees >= 130% aircharge across all maps, except at high RPM/aircharge where the increase is only 0.75-1.5 degrees. A catted downpipe advances ignition but a catless one does not?
• No codes are disabled for a high-flow cat on 91 octane, unlike on 93 octane?
• No cam changes, unlike catless.

Intercooler (91octane-int-st):

• Increase PA turbo max ratio by 0.3 and temp by 0.25
• Advance ignition by 1.5 degrees at lowest RPM. This is the only basemap where this ignition change is made?
• Decrease max air charge by 10% (absolute) at 4000+ RPM
• Reduce knock retard step by 0.75 degrees
• Push VTEC hysteresis up 250 rpm at 67%+ TPS

Catless downpipe + intercooler (91octane-dp-int-st):

• This is based on 91octane-st and does not change cams/turbo ratios like the individual downpipe/IC maps.
• The knock retard and VTEC changes are the same as 91octane-int-st, however.
• Advances ignition by 0.75 degrees >= 130% aircharge across all maps. The low-RPM ignition change from 91octane-int-st is missing and the overall ignition advance is significantly less than 91octane-hfc-st?
• Decrease max air charge. Almost the same decrease as 91octane-dp-st, except a little bit more decrease 5000-6000RPM.
  
  

PRL catless downpipe + intercooler (91octane-PRL-int-dp):

• Same changes as 91octane-dp-int-st
• Increase PA and temp turbo max ratio by 0.5
• Reduce IAT2 PA comp by 50%

93 octane
Basemap (93octane-st): advance ignition by 2.25 degrees >= 130% aircharge across all maps. This is almost the same ignition change as 91octane-hfc-st, except it doesn't taper at higher RPM/aircharge.

Catless downpipe (93octane-dp-st): Same changes as 91octane-dp-st, plus ignition advance from 93octane-st

High-flow catted downpipe (93octane-hfc-st): NEW

• Does not change ignition, unlike the 91 high flow cat tune. Only disables codes.
• Disable p0420, p0449, p0139, p0141, p0136, p2183, p2270/p2271.. ENABLE p0299?

Intercooler (93octane-int-st): NEW

• Same air charge, turbo max ratio, knock retard, VTEC changes as 91octane-int-st
• Same code changes as 93octane-hfc-st. Yet again enables P0299. But these same codes aren't changed in the 91 intercooler basemap?

Catless downpipe + Intercooler (93octane-dp-int-st):

• As in 91 octane, this is based on 93octane-st and does not have the cam/turbo ratio changes present in 93octane-int-st or 93octane-dp-st.
• Disable p0420 catalytic efficiency
• Advance ignition by 2.25 degrees >= 170% aircharge across all maps.
• Slightly increase air charge limit by 2-5% at 5500+ RPM

PRL catless downpipe + intercooler (93octane-PRL-int-dp):

• Same changes as 91octane-PRL-int-dp

This isn't even getting into the ethanol or full race/injen maps..

So, some inconsistencies I don't understand.. Note that none of this is dangerous or something, just strange.

I marked it all in red below, but I'll summarize the issues I'm seeing here, some of which are not new:

1. The two new 93 octane maps get a bunch of disables by default (p0420, p0449, p0139, p0141, p0136, p2183, p2270/p2271, mostly emissions codes). But, the old 91 octane maps were not updated with these disables. Likewise, these disables do not carry into the downpipe + intercooler maps.
2. The two new maps also seem to mistakenly enable P0299 turbocharger underboost.
3. In the 91 octane intercooler map, there's an ignition advance at the lowest RPM. This is the only map where this happens, even in the combined 91 dp+ic map.
4. Various DTC changes in the hundreds that I didn't feel like comparing that would show up in the individual maps but disappear in the combined ones.
5. On 91 octane, a high-flow cat downpipe advances ignition nearly as much as 93 octane with stock parts.. but a catless downpipe doesn't advance at all until you put an intercooler with it and then it advances ignition less than the high-flow cat by itself??

And most importantly.. The standalone catless downpipe maps changes the cam angles and the intercooler maps change various boost parameters, but none of these changes make it into the combined downpipe + intercooler maps. This goes for 91 and 93.

So basically, Hondata increases the max boost for an intercooler but once you slap on a downpipe they take that boost away? Likewise, they make cam changes for a downpipe but revert those changes once an intercooler is put on? That doesn't make sense..

Side note, the improved throttle response basemaps don't do anything except enable the 'improved throttle response' mod that is available on every other basemap anyways, so they're unnecessary to compare.

 

[kefi]

@Hondata @boosted180sx @Jpierro79 am I missing something here?

 

[Hondata]

1. Ignore any of the differences with DTC enables/disables. The settings depend on the exact car on the dyno at the time and the DTCs we disable are not going to affect the way the car runs.

2. We learn as we tune so more recent tuning sessions might use different strategies that older calibrations. Typically the actual differences are very minor. To put this in context, the differences between calibrations is much less that the individual differences between vehicles.

3. Downpipes compared to catted pipes need the air charge limited otherwise they run out of fuel pump.

4. Some of the answers to your questions are in the help file. eg. The cat protection temperature is reduced to force the ECU out of stoichiometric lambda in order to run richer.

5. Other parameters / tables are non critical. eg if the max ratio is high enough, then it does not matter if it is 3.5 or 4.0.

The calibrations will work well for all parts combinations they are created for.

 

[kefi]

1. Ignore any of the differences with DTC enables/disables. The settings depend on the exact car on the dyno at the time and the DTCs we disable are not going to affect the way the car runs.

2. We learn as we tune so more recent tuning sessions might use different strategies that older calibrations. Typically the actual differences are very minor. To put this in context, the differences between calibrations is much less that the individual differences between vehicles.

3. Downpipes compared to catted pipes need the air charge limited otherwise they run out of fuel pump.

4. Some of the answers to your questions are in the help file. eg. The cat protection temperature is reduced to force the ECU out of stoichiometric lambda in order to run richer.

5. Other parameters / tables are non critical. eg if the max ratio is high enough, then it does not matter if it is 3.5 or 4.0.

The calibrations will work well for all parts combinations they are created for.

Thanks so much for the response! Thats pretty smart about the cat protect temperature. Would've never guessed!

You're right, these small nitpicks don't add up to much, it just confuses me when I'm trying to understand the 'why' and see that once two parts are combined, their individual changes are not, or other small things.

I've never had an issue with the basemaps either way. Thanks for all you do and for filling in those gaps!

 

[Hondata]

We'll go over the basemaps again and make sure that the settings are ok.

 

[Jpierro79]

@Hondata @boosted180sx @Jpierro79 am I missing something here?

Hey kefi there’s always going to be subtle differences as Hondata advances their knowledge of the vehicle. I’ve learned more even in the last few weeks dialing my air charge changes and using different VTEC timing. I’ve customized mine to 3250 because When it was at 3400 between the cam advance and the variable cam timing I was getting a slight boost spike at 3500. I’ve also had to change cam timing to allow for a bit more boost at slightly lower rpm so it would taper into boost not jump. Less intake cam advance or negative cam opens the intake valves later so there is less time to fill the combustion chamber with volume but this does allow for slightly better spool. Also acts like a bit of boost limit. Positive the opposite. The valve opens earlier allowing the chamber to fill for longer period of time. If you look at max load on the right at 3380rpm on intake VTEC cam chart it’s at -15 and at 3750rpm if I remember it’s like +4 or maybe a bit more I can’t remember. That’s a part why these cars will NOT make power down low and then it’s like somebody turns the on switch at 3500. The cam timing changes drastically. Now These are subtle tricks tuners learn that each car likes or dislikes.
I’d only worry if there where drastic differences. I’d think if hondata changed the map that drastically that it made a big power difference they’d let you know. As for the p0299 the underboost it’s designed into to the car to detect boost leak. Depending on sensitivity to intercooler sizes and different piping the map sensor in the piping might not correlate what it thinks it should read in the intake manifold. Or the MAF flow may read low or higher than stock due to the way air is traveling over the MAF with different intakes and between temp changes due to larger intercooler the car may read it as an out if range. Remember those ranges were set at that tiny stock intercooler. Personally I’ve never had it happen to me on my type r but after 21 years as an automotive technician this is the logistics of it. I’ve had it on bmw with burst intercooler pipes that had the code but not when one of the two turbos was dead on another bmw.
I do believe it’s more sensitive to MAF flow being higher and the ecu expects a certain amount of pressure with certain amount of flow and when the ecu doesn’t see that pressure it throws the code

 

[Jpierro79]

When you said low rpm high torque.. how low do you mean??

You can ramp the torque up way higher than you think on a lot of small turbo cars. If you wanted to with cam timing changes and flow limit changes with higher torque setting you can make 400ftlbs of torque at about 3k but you won’t have an engine left. That’s higher torque at low rpm. Torque and hp match at 5250rpm. Anything below that torque will read higher than hp. Essentially pretty much anything under 3500-4000 is low rpm torque. Diesels rev to 4000 maybe a bit higher that’s why no hp but tons of torque. Mack trucks maybe 3000. Plus the fuel plays a role but you need a tank of an engine to deal with that kind of torque. You need to distribute the load over larger areas. Look at it this way most NA v8 engines up to 5+ liters don’t even make 400ftlbs of torque at 3k. How can anyone possibly think with less than half the size and half the cylinders To distribute the force yet the sane amount of applied force is going to hold up? Look at any dyno chart and notice that torque fades the higher the rpm. It changes from a raw load to more of a momentum force. Take some time To think under Newton’s laws of motion and apply it while watching a video of the internals of an engine running

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