honest question about the $$

[Zystus]

If you weren't in CA you probably could find one relatively easily for 35 new (for the 2018 models). It required a day's work to find a dealer willing to do it for me, but depending on where you are it could take longer. That being said, the dealer I bought from doesn't mark up at all.

Yah, that's the thing in Cali the markups are freaking ridiculous even for the 2018's. I went to 6 dealerships trying to get one and they wanted around 45k for it, the most ridiculous offer I got was 52k.

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[Zystus]

Oh by the way, with Carmax/Carvana you can test drive it for 7 days and just return it with no questions asked and get a full refund. I'm on my 4th day with this car and I'm in love. I might return mine and just wait for the 2020 Phoenix Yellow Type R. Decisions... Decisions...

 

[consensual_induction]

You're absolutely right, the Civic can't handle the torque that it puts down to the wheels and will spin in both first and second in stock form if you just mad-ham on it. It takes time to learn how to launch the vehicle properly to get the most out of the car and not spin while accelerating. So you don't get the instant torque of an AWD car nor its launching capabilities. RWD works a little better for launching (due to the physics of it) but AWD is indeed the best with AWD electric being by far the best. They are tricky to drive and require a little bit of finesse.

However, once you're past 2nd gear, the power kicks in and and doesn't succumb to the downsides an FR or AWD format gives, the loss of power and weight gain. No matter how you try to turn it, there is simply less powertrain (post crank) for the power to travel in an FF (and MR) car compared to an FR and AWD. An FF layout (and MR) will result in about 10% powertrain loss while an FR and AWD will get upwards of 15 and 20%, respectively. That is, the Focus RS motor's 350 HP output is a lot closer to 280 HP to the wheels while the 306 of the Civic Type R would be 275. Then factor in the weight. Both FR and AWD layouts require a drive shaft going from the front of the car to the rear and that comes with a double cost due to both weight and power disadvantages they come with (that's where some of the additional drivetrain loss is, actually just about all of it for an FR vehicle). To sum up, the FF (and MR) layout does allow for a lighter car due to the missing driveshaft running the length of the vehicle (which means better handling and braking) with the ability to put out more power to the wheels due to less drivetrain loss. Off note, the weight and power loss of the driveshaft is one of the primary reasons why the C8 Vette can do 0-60 in around 3 seconds without needing a super powerful engine. The 490 HP crank output would put down 440 HP as an MR setup vs 417 in an FR (or about 392 in an AWD) to the wheels, the lack of driveshaft also lightens it up.

You make a comment about driving without wheelsman being difficult and sucking the fun out of it. It's a learning process that does require skill, patience, and finesse. But when you launch an FF, FR, or MR car properly without any wheel spin in an efficient manner, there is a sense of accomplishment to it the same way a perfect heel-toe downshift gives a sense of accomplishment. Now don't get me wrong, there is something completely exhilarating about doing a WOT pull on an AWD vehicle and getting the immediate and strong sling of a full-on torque pull. The car legitimately feels fast as opposed to something like the Type R where it builds up power and pulls you to speed without you really realizing it (which can land you in quite a bit of trouble). Now that's not to say the CTR isn't exhilarating, it definitely is, but it doesn't create the excitement that something like a Focus RS does.

Basically, as with everything, there are tradeoffs that are seen and some that aren't. Yes AWD has it's advantages, but so does an FF layout and an FR layout that tries to cut the baby in half. Ideally the MR layout does a better job combining the strengths of both FF and FR, but remains 2-wheel drive. The 2-wheel drive car is going to be more difficult to drive than the AWD and may not be as exhilarating, but it still has stuff going for it.

Edit: why did I choose a Civic Type R over the competition? Well, the Focus RS had a cluster phobic interior that was a little too dark with seat bolstering that went up a little too high for my 5'0" frame. The STI would be perfect but the engine is well out of date and lack of CarPlay did do it for me, also I don't exactly fit in an STI (I can't get the clutch in all the way comfortably). There were no Golf R's anywhere near me to test drive, and I had the same issue with fitting in the car like the STI. If the Veloster N was around at the time I would have definitely considered it, though the CTR probably would have better reliability (and resale, but I'm not planning on selling).

Edit 2: I don't spin in second on an on ramp because 2nd gear gets me through my entry, I spend most of my time in 3rd and 4th gear (if it's S-shaped or straight). If it's one of those circular ones I'll hold speed in 3rd gear and merge with traffic. If there is no traffic, then I'll drop to 2nd and do a pull, but by that time I'm past the point where 2nd gear will spin if I roll into the gas.

This may be the most informative, best written, and helpful post I’ve seen on this forum.

I didn’t know ff made up with weight difference. That’s a lot more appealing!

Thank you so much for writing that out!

 

[consensual_induction]

Oh by the way, with Carmax/Carvana you can test drive it for 7 days and just return it with no questions asked and get a full refund. I'm on my 4th day with this car and I'm in love. I might return mine and just wait for the 2020 Phoenix Yellow Type R. Decisions... Decisions...

WWAAAATTTT?

gonna go ‘buy’ that sl500 I see every week

 

[garoto]

No markup. No wheel hop, you should read on the dual axis suspension. I don’t care for AWD on FWD-biased cars anyway.

There are traction issues at takeoff, but there isn’t wheelhop or torque steer. I own. An S2000 as well, and you can also get the rears spinning on takeoff if you wanted to. When the car is FWD it just feels more pronounced.

I bought the car for everything that the car is, it’s amazing powertrain, and menacing handling.

 

[Harlaquin]

In stock form, Honda put tires on the car that can't hold the power. I went up to 245/35/R20 Pirelli P-Zeros on the stock rims and now I can run all the way through third gear with no wheel spin, no hopping and no traction control light. Just changing that one thing made a world of difference for me.

I was gonna say what is all this talk about spin? Mine never spun? I had it two years. I keep hearing people talk about spin and IM just like um how? Then your post told me what I needed to know. I too put Pzero tires on the first week. They grip like mad. My buddy I remember now asking why my car didn't spin. Tires I guess. Like everyone else he ran out and got those pilot sport tires. Not sure the hype around those. He had a not modded R and he spun on pilot sport tires and I had a modded R and did not spin on the pzero. So to summarize... Tire choice is key

 

[d15b7]

I owned a EVO VIII for 5 years from new. i lightly modded it to suit my tastes. and

the CTR does EVERYTHING better, other than drag racing from a dig, than the EVO ever did. the CTR is so much a better car, and it starts with it's fantastic chassis, spreads to the suspension, and brakes, and interior, and real aero bits. the engine is smoother and the trans is a million times better than the EVO. and the least important aspect to me of any car is 'how fast will it dig from a light'. I care more about carving up the back roads, and an occasional track day, and its comfort (i drive it every day) plus its utility (I use it to haul computer parts around plus my kids stuff etc etc). its just a better engineered much better put together car all the way around.

EDIT and i liked the EVO very much! in 2003 it was one of the best/only cars of its type available. but the CTR is so much better executed. when you sit in the CTR and start to drive it, it just feels RIGHT. i dont know how else to explain it.

 

[eshults5]

coming from evo x and sti, why pay for the markup on the type r- it doesnt have awd and that much power means some spin to win (at a bunny hop contest) insanity that you cant really fix without cutting power via traction lsd etc.

I paid $35k for mine. I wouldn't have paid over $40k. $35k was the right price I thought.

I've noticed wheel spin on some days more than others. It really depends on the conditions.

The CTR though is the best feeling car I've ever driven. Everything about it feels so precise and tight. It's a pleasure to drive even when you aren't driving like a maniac. I don't even care that it isn't AWD. I mainly notice it only in first gear on some days and on bumpy roads. Plus it's more daily driveable than all the other hot hatches with the exception of the Golf R, which will run you over $40k.

 

[randmtsk]

Paid MSRP (34.9k) for my Type R. Had a Sti that MSRP'd at 38.6k...so I didn't pay more.

Aside from not having to worry about the dreaded ringland failures the Type R handles way better...I feel confident going 10-15 mph faster on twisty roads than i did in the Sti...the suspensions aren't even close. The Type R is noticeably lighter without the AWD system, which makes it more fun to me.

The type R also makes a nicer daily imo with taller gears and a lighter clutch ...not to mention the tech in it is worlds ahead. I can see an argument for the Sti if you live in an area with lots of snow.

 

[Micah]

I had an Evo X with the Recaro bucket seats and loved that car. It's a beast, and the AWD system was ahead of its time. If I were to buy a car and mod it to make a lot of power. That's the car. What didn't like about it was the cheap interior, the lack of folding down back seat, and lack of 6 gear which made it a horrible highway commuter. The type R kinda resolves all of that. Also, I'm not going crazy modding this car and more power because FWD has its limit. Just slowly and moderately modding it and enjoy the car the way it is.

Yeah, I miss my 2011 EVOX GSR FBO MHI18k

 

[ez12a]

outside from a dig, the CTR pulls harder and is faster than an Evo X and STI (all cars stock) all the while having a better interior, MPG, utility. In a region that does not require AWD, it's a no brainer. and it's also cheaper.

Even my buddy with an Evo X MR SST felt like the CTR pulled harder.

 

[scoobysnack]

I'm 100% stock and never have traction issues. This car does an amazing job of putting the power to the road. I hear it from the "professionals" in the car review vids and I feel it when I drive it. This car misses nothing being FWD.

But the audio system is sheet.

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