Hondata Flashpro Tuning for the FK8 Type R!!

[TypeRinATL]

Yours is stock? Funny your torque reads higher than your hp.

One of my buddies who also owns a type R dyno'd his when stock, his torque was higher than hp also.

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[jonnys_honda]

I can't wait!

 

[typemismatch]

That sounds good. Would it be safe to assume the torque would probably surpass the horsepower? The reason I ask this is because almost every video I've watched (I'm using the Si as an example) of someone using a flashpro to tune their car they seem to bump their torque up over their horsepower. I don't know why this is. So if we are say bumping our Type R's to around 400hp would the torque probably jump to 400 or more?

Correct me if I am wrong. This it just what I have noticed.

The reason tq is higher than hp is the baby sized OEM turbo that hits peak torque early and then drops off to redline.

It's really good for quick spool up and acceleration.

However, as rpms rise our turbo is not able to flow enough air mass at the pressure required to continue making torque.

I'm sure most of us know hp = (tq * rpm) / 5252, which generally means horsepower and torque curves will cross around 5000 rpms.

Knowing that and what we know about our turbo, we can state it this way: Since horsepower rises with rpm, and our turbo can't sustain the density airflow required to continue making torque at higher rpms, our torque number will generally rise faster than our horsepower.

There are already modified turbos with increased compressor sizes from the FK2 that are available to flow more at higher rpms (7mod).

I believe that the more you increase the air flow characteristics of the motor without changing the turbo, the sooner (in rpms) the turbo will run out of steam. Which will lead to a tendency for torque to increase faster than horsepower.

 

[typemismatch]

With the stock turbo, it is very likely that torque will be higher than horsepower.

We have to wait and see, but the stock turbo is going to be limited on the top end where all the horsepower is made. What won’t be limited is how hard the boost comes on in the low end which is where most of the torque is made.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see 400wtq and 360(ish)whp. The stock turbo on the top end WILL be the limiting factor, we just don’t know how much yet.

I would be concerned about bringing in the boost much earlier than it does stock.

The stock tune gradually allows boost to rise to peak at 3,500 due to piston acceleration away from TDC.

As a general rule, you don't want to bring in too much boost below 3,000 rpms because the increased cylinder pressure while the pistons are accelerating away from TDC more slowly can cause even forged rods to bend.

I wouldn't be concerned with how much power in the mid to top end this motor can take mechanically. In addition to the rotating assembly being forged vs cast, Honda supposedly introduced a new way (for them) to cool the pistons, by running oil through the piston crowns.

By all measures this is the most advanced production motor that Honda has ever built. Looking at previous performance motors as a bench mark (B VTEC and K20), they have been able to make between 2-3x the power output of stock before major internal modifications are necessary.

I can't wait to see what people do with this now that affordable tuning is coming to market.

 

[StickShiftMyButt]

Thank you for the link. So it just appears the method used to measure the hp is the main reason for the slightly different numbers. I do remember Europeans always saying brake horsepower instead of just horsepower.

From what I have heard, it's because of Europe's higher octane rating on premium gas

 

[boosted180sx]

I'm fine with just a pump gas tune. Give me like 350whp and thats ok with me.

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

I'm fine with just a pump gas tune. Give me like 350whp and thats ok with me.

Yeah true. 350hp will rip pretty good. Just gotta make enough power to out-pull the Si's that are heavily modded!

 

[TypeRinATL]

I would be concerned about bringing in the boost much earlier than it does stock.

The stock tune gradually allows boost to rise to peak at 3,500 due to piston acceleration away from TDC.

As a general rule, you don't want to bring in too much boost below 3,000 rpms because the increased cylinder pressure while the pistons are accelerating away from TDC more slowly can cause even forged rods to bend.

I wouldn't be concerned with how much power in the mid to top end this motor can take mechanically. In addition to the rotating assembly being forged vs cast, Honda supposedly introduced a new way (for them) to cool the pistons, by running oil through the piston crowns.

By all measures this is the most advanced production motor that Honda has ever built. Looking at previous performance motors as a bench mark (B VTEC and K20), they have been able to make between 2-3x the power output of stock before major internal modifications are necessary.

I can't wait to see what people do with this now that affordable tuning is coming to market.

I wouldn't be asking a tuner for boost earlier in the RPM range. What I'd be asking for is *more* boost as the ramp up is complete. So if we hit max boost of 23psi at 3300rpm, I'd want something like 27psi by 3500rpm.

We obviously don't want to be slamming 25+psi down its throat at 2800rpm. I'm not that greedy. Haha

 

[TypeRinATL]

I'm fine with just a pump gas tune. Give me like 350whp and thats ok with me.

I just might stop there too. I'd love to have ~390wtq at around 350-360whp.

I already struggle for traction in stock form. I literally almost cannot use 2nd gear at all, just spins and spins after boost hits 20+psi. With more power I'm going to need more tire/better tire or something.

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

I just might stop there too. I'd love to have ~390wtq at around 350-360whp.

I already struggle for traction in stock form. I literally almost cannot use 2nd gear at all, just spins and spins after boost hits 20+psi. With more power I'm going to need more tire/better tire or something.

I'm with you on the traction. No good with summer or winter tires. 3rd gear gets de-tuned based on the traction light flashing at me. 2nd gear with snow tires on is usable but still breaks loose and goes to redline quick. Love it though!

 

[boosted180sx]

Yeah true. 350hp will rip pretty good. Just gotta make enough power to out-pull the Si's that are heavily modded!

Yeah. I don't really care to out pull Si's and what not, but more about cleaning up the power and get rid of some of the up and downs on the curve. But if i'm going to tune it, might as well get a few more hp and torque out of it lol.

 

[EricDET]

I would be concerned about bringing in the boost much earlier than it does stock.

The stock tune gradually allows boost to rise to peak at 3,500 due to piston acceleration away from TDC.

As a general rule, you don't want to bring in too much boost below 3,000 rpms because the increased cylinder pressure while the pistons are accelerating away from TDC more slowly can cause even forged rods to bend.

I wouldn't be concerned with how much power in the mid to top end this motor can take mechanically. In addition to the rotating assembly being forged vs cast, Honda supposedly introduced a new way (for them) to cool the pistons, by running oil through the piston crowns.

By all measures this is the most advanced production motor that Honda has ever built. Looking at previous performance motors as a bench mark (B VTEC and K20), they have been able to make between 2-3x the power output of stock before major internal modifications are necessary.

I can't wait to see what people do with this now that affordable tuning is coming to market.

Solid advice here. Torque is great but it can put a significant strain on the rods down low in the rpm. This engine really shines on the top end.

 

[Hondata]

This is not a Honda ECU. Forget everything you know about tuning Hondas and go and read the VW/Audi forums about Bosch MED tuning. The ECU used in the FK2/FK8 is more advanced that what is mostly talked about on the forums, but the principals are the same. Don't assume that because previous ECUs worked in a certain way that the Bosch ECU works in the same way.

Tuning does not work in the same way. The Bosch ECU has a complex mathematical model for everything and models the whole engine in a very detailed way. There generally are no tables to change like in the Honda ECUs so tuning is different. For example, if you change the intercooler then with a Honda ECU you might do nothing or you might tweak a WOT lambda table. With the Bosch ECU you change the intercooler volume number, the intercooler efficiency table and the pressure drop table. The ECU does the rest.

The ECU is torqued based (even the Honda ECUs are now). There are torque tables for each gear and each mode (comfort, sport, R) by throttle position. The ECU will take a target torque from the table and then work out the necessary cylinder filling and from that the throttle position / amount of boost. It compensates for temperature, lambda, ignition, temperature, accessory load etc. Thus you will make less boost on a cold day with the AC off than on a hot day with the AC on, but will make the same amount of torque for that rpm.

Going back to one of the posts above, if you get wheelspin in 2nd gear it is very easy to soften the torque build up for that gear. One table to change and nothing else required.

 

[17CivicTypeR_Brian]

I feel like any car that looks like this is automatically disqualified from being a sleeper

I know I know. I said it for the reaction!!! But seriously - with looks like this, it's a bit of a challenge in the area I live. Most people don't understand the odd exhaust tips. Some assume I just ordered 'every option in the option list' and put this thing together.
At the meets and parking lots, I don't always get the chance to chat .... 'yea but, it's functional and is the fastest front-wheel-drive car around almost every track.' It would be handy to have a nice high 12 second pass, or at least a 115-120 trap speed to unleash on the F-body locals around here...lol.
Black with tint and black fake grilles really is low-key compared to the other, more impact-full colors. I've got my 18" winter wheels so I really think I get confused for dime-a-dozen Subarus!

This is not a Honda ECU. Forget everything you know about tuning Hondas and go and read the VW/Audi forums about Bosch MED tuning. The ECU used in the FK2/FK8 is more advanced that what is mostly talked about on the forums, but the principals are the same. Don't assume that because previous ECUs worked in a certain way that the Bosch ECU works in the same way.

Tuning does not work in the same way. The Bosch ECU has a complex mathematical model for everything and models the whole engine in a very detailed way. There generally are no tables to change like in the Honda ECUs so tuning is different. For example, if you change the intercooler then with a Honda ECU you might do nothing or you might tweak a WOT lambda table. With the Bosch ECU you change the intercooler volume number, the intercooler efficiency table and the pressure drop table. The ECU does the rest.

The ECU is torqued based (even the Honda ECUs are now). There are torque tables for each gear and each mode (comfort, sport, R) by throttle position. The ECU will take a target torque from the table and then work out the necessary cylinder filling and from that the throttle position / amount of boost. It compensates for temperature, lambda, ignition, temperature, accessory load etc. Thus you will make less boost on a cold day with the AC off than on a hot day with the AC on, but will make the same amount of torque for that rpm.

Going back to one of the posts above, if you get wheelspin in 2nd gear it is very easy to soften the torque build up for that gear. One table to change and nothing else required.

I'm glad you guys are commenting on the topic! I have questions, didn't want to blow up the inbox with them so just trying to figure out what forums you guys are active on. Is it best to ask on here or on the Hondata forum?

 

[EricDET]

I know I know. I said it for the reaction!!! But seriously - with looks like this, it's a bit of a challenge in the area I live. Most people don't understand the odd exhaust tips. Some assume I just ordered 'every option in the option list' and put this thing together.
At the meets and parking lots, I don't always get the chance to chat .... 'yea but, it's functional and is the fastest front-wheel-drive car around almost every track.' It would be handy to have a nice high 12 second pass, or at least a 115-120 trap speed to unleash on the F-body locals around here...lol.
Black with tint and black fake grilles really is low-key compared to the other, more impact-full colors. I've got my 18" winter wheels so I really think I get confused for dime-a-dozen Subarus!



I'm glad you guys are commenting on the topic! I have questions, didn't want to blow up the inbox with them so just trying to figure out what forums you guys are active on. Is it best to ask on here or on the Hondata forum?

They're pretty tight lipped so far. I asked a few questions and got a vanilla, "You'll have to watch the site for more updates." Everything will come in time.

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