Honda/Nissan disappointing with Si/Sentra NISMO?

  1. erbee

    erbee Senior Member

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    I guess Honda will make the next Si with 1.0 T. Same 205hp but you know what 200 TQ! The most powerful Si ever. Say no to this POS so they will upgrade it later.
     
  2. thaseint

    thaseint Senior Member

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    I guess the nay-sayers including myself feel that simply going with a detuned 2.0T would have satisfied everyone. I don't think there would be a single person out there that would have complained about getting a detuned 2.0T.

    A 2.0T may have sacrificed 2-3MPG; but would have still been loved by those who are okay with the 1.5T and those who are dismayed with the 1.5T. It just made sense when you look at other manufacturer offerings. A 2.0T Si would have dominated the market hands down.

    The 2.0T just would have been a far better option all around is what I think people are saying and I have a feeling most people wouldn't mind paying an extra $1k over what the 9th gen Si cost.
     
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  3. LoveToDrive

    LoveToDrive Senior Member

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    #33 LoveToDrive, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    I understand that about the 2.0T, and I don't argue about that there. My view is that had Honda gone with 2.0T, it would certainly be a lot more than +$1000 over the 9th Si. The price of the 10th Si is most likely going to be $1K over the last one already.
     
  4. thaseint

    thaseint Senior Member

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    #34 thaseint, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    Maybe, maybe not. A big reason for the uptick in MSRP would be the adaptive suspension. While that's a neat feature in a sub-$40k car I feel like a better engine would have most certainly been more noticeable on the street. Extra torque, extra horsepower all would have been a good/fun thing when driving around town. Adaptive suspension really is cool for sure but it's probably not something most people would notice on a daily basis.

    Also, suspension modifications traditionally tend to be one of the big things that people modify on their Si. Lowering a car is not my cup of tea but I know a lot of people are into it. Luckly the Si ride height looks great from the factory so I don't envision too many people lowering.

    The only way to modify the adaptive shocks/struts (correctly anyways) will likely be to completely eliminate the system all together. So people will end up paying extra for the feature but then later getting rid of it...seems a little silly IMO.

    Ultimately, Honda could have dropped the adaptive suspension and detuned the 2.0T and kept the same MSRP that they were planning for the 10th. gen Si. Or at the very least they could have used the detuned 2.0T and made adaptive suspension a ($1k) option like some other manufacturers do.
     
  5. Wizerud

    Wizerud Senior Member

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    You keep saying the 2.0 engine would be a 1k premium. I bet it's a helluva lot more than that. Honda already said they used the 1.5 to keep the costs down.
     
  6. LoveToDrive

    LoveToDrive Senior Member

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    How can you say that? Even *I* know that Honda can't just drop in a 2.0T in this Si's engine bay, and call it a day. The level of precision engineering required to achieve overall balance (and reliability) will not be acceptable for them, just to say, "We put in a 2.0T!!!"
     
  7. thaseint

    thaseint Senior Member

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    They're using the K20 motor, it's a derivative of a motor they've been using for over a decade now. So Honda certainly knows a lot about their K-series. The K20C2 (2.0L found in the base Civic) is a cousin to the K20C1 (2.0T engine in the CTR). Honda will also be using another variant of the 2.0T in their Accord as well as their Avancier and maybe the Pilot.

    It's hard to fathom that it would have been that difficult to increase the compression ratio, use the TD03 turbocharger and somehow cause the cost to skyrocket to the point where people would jump ship on Honda. Let's remember the Si is still reasonably priced among the competition, an extra $1k or even $2k would be still be a solid buy for someone wanting a reliable performance car that won't brake the bank. The only reason anyone would stray from a 2.0T Si is if they wanted a hatch.

    My theory: It wasn't so much about cost (that was certainly a factor) but more about long term growth for the 10th gen. Si. I'm predicting they are going to use the 1.5T engine for a few years and then do a model refresh once the 2.0T engines become more common place in their lineup. At this point the costs would get more in line with what the bean counters are okay with. Doing it this way would mean they could keep the 10th gen. Si around for much longer and/or can segue them into the 11th. gen.
     
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  8. joe007

    joe007 Senior Member

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    I really think they blew it with the adaptive suspension, it's a useless feature for most. Unless you plan to toggle it on / off on a regular basis, it's useless dead weight + dead cost. I'm going to leave it in sport mode, there's no situation where I would ever turn it off. Other people might do the exact opposite.

    What Honda SHOULD have done was ship the car with default non-sport suspension, which would cut cost + weight. Then include the sport suspension (not adaptive) options with the performance kit. So people who want minivan suspension get it by default, everyone else can upgrade on their own or pay extra and get it upgraded at the factory. The end result is a BETTER car for almost everyone.
     
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  9. dmitri

    dmitri Senior Member

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    Yeah earlier I was thinking the only possible scenario for that might be when I drive some "sensitive" passengers :), but then thinking about it again, I'm not sure I would want to ever sacrifice being close(r) to the road for making things more "comfy" for passengers. Esp. since most of them are used to my fairly stiff TSX... But guess I'll just wait and see how they configured it, maybe it would be useful in some rare scenarios.
    But yeah otherwise I agree completely.
     
  10. LoveToDrive

    LoveToDrive Senior Member

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    I partially agree with that - weight, dead cost. But, hey, I wouldn't want a minivan suspension from the get-go. ha ha ha. Why am I buying the Si then? ;) We'll have to wait and see what both suspension settings feel like.
     
  11. drakenc

    drakenc Member

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    So the review for the NISMO is in...
    http://www.motortrend.com/cars/nissan/sentra/2017/2017-nissan-sentra-nismo-first-test-review/

    Pretty underwhelming for the price point IMO. Then again, I was never really a big fan of the B17 chassis to begin with. Too bloated with a subpar suspension layout, numb steering, and a mediocre engine. About the only thing I'll give it props for is it's interior space, very spacious for a compact last I recall.

    Call me nuts, but I think I would've much rather seen a NISMO Versa note over the current Sentra. A subcompact hothatch to compete against the Fiesta ST would've been okay in my book.


    At least the 10th gen Si will probably fair very well against the NISMO Sentra. While I do admit that I was a little disappointed with the Si power figures, I'm confident that it will perform quite well overall in the compact segment.
     
  12. thaseint

    thaseint Senior Member

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    Hah! Yeah I saw that review.

    It's funny, when I heard about what Honda was doing with the Si 1.5T I had to keep it in perspective, at least we didn't get Nissan-ed. Back when the Sentra NISMO was a concept they were touting a 240hp engine or something. That had to of been a major bummer for Nissan fans, I mean it didn't even get a single horsepower/ft.lb increase from the SR, the fuel economy is meh, it's priced at >$25k and it truly was just a dolled up SR.

    I'm wondering if Nissan might end up doing like they did with the Juke and have a Juke NISMO and a Juke NISMO RS?

    The new Si will be worlds better than the Sentra NISMO that's for sure. I mean the regular Civic probably does much better so it should be no contest here.
     
  13. 87elco

    87elco Senior Member

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    For some reason I want one..getting closer to 30 life crisis?
     
  14. WorldRally17

    WorldRally17 Member

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    I have two thoughts on this:

    1. Having driven both a Sentra and Si, they are totally different cars and are not fair to compare. The Sentra feels like a boring car that had some sporty bits tacked on and then called it a Nismo because it has brand recognition. IMO the Steering was too light and didn't communicate anything that was going on with the road, the engine felt slow and void of any character, the brake pedal was soft, etc etc etc. At the time I owned a 2009 Mini Clubman JCW and the dealer was really trying to push me on a Sentra and I told him I would rather drive my costly always-broken Mini over one because at least it was interesting! The Si on the other hand has a much more lively driving feel and really made me believe it was living up to the sporty badge placed on it.

    2. I don't think power figures are worth anything more than bragging rights, especially when your whining over just 20 or 30 hp and/or you just drive the car to work everyday and it will never see a track or drag strip. Even if the Nismo Sentra came with 280hp I still wouldn't buy one because every other part of the car screams BORING. Yes I can go to my friends and say I have 280hp, but is it worth it when the brakes, suspension, and steering are all garbage?

    Now I may be biased because twice I have bought the less powerful car; I picked a Scion FR-S over a Mazdaspeed 3 in 2013 and picked an Si coupe over a WRX in 2018 lol. But, when I drive a car it's usually quickly pretty clear which one was designed and engineered to be sporty and which one simply had some "sporty" things thrown at it and I think that is more important than the horsepower number.
     
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  15. xbbnx

    xbbnx Senior Member

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    Well said.
     
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