Honda/Nissan disappointing with Si/Sentra NISMO?

zx2down

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What really bugs me is that people complained(not specifically here but in general) the NISMO Sentra is just an SR Turbo + NISMO suspension and interior exterior pkg, and it sounds like the Si will mostly be the same but will have LSD and 2hp/tq more than the NISMO. (based on rumor the Si just uses a CR-V 1.5T)

For me, these two cars are just not holding up to what was expected, and are arriving very late to the game. Many people expected a good Focus/Fiesta ST competitor, and the ST's are due for a refresh shortly. The GTI, GLI, ST seem to be leaving their Japanese competition behind right now, and with the two not even in the market yet potential buyers are more and more likely to just give up for a VW or Ford selling under MSRP instead of waiting(and have an established aftermarket), to just pay for a car with a markup(and have to wait for aftermarket to catch up to the new gen).

I get that they want the Type-R to be their king of the hill, but with it supposed to be 300+HP, I am not understanding why they are(possibly) releasing cars that make under 200HP, when their direct competition is making 210-250HP and 250-270TQ, not counting the OEM provided tunes/packages that can give more on top of that.

I get that the Si is more about a fun to drive than power, a "drivers car", but those are also fitting the same market. I can see that some people see the GTI as a bit pricey, or the ST as a bit aggressively styled, but I don't see that as a reason for the Si to not deliver at least similar levels of factory performance to them.

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My opinion is that this discussion (minus Nissan) has been had umpteen times in this board already.
 

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It has to be that Mist American are obese and need the extra Hp/Tq provide from American company's to haul them around at normal speeds.

The Japenese on the other hand only eat fish and rice and are very light hence the lower Hp/Tq required to move their cars.

This is not a scientific fact but I'm pretty certain it explains it all.
 

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What really bugs me is that people complained(not specifically here but in general) the NISMO Sentra is just an SR Turbo + NISMO suspension and interior exterior pkg, and it sounds like the Si will mostly be the same but will have LSD and 2hp/tq more than the NISMO. (based on rumor the Si just uses a CR-V 1.5T)

For me, these two cars are just not holding up to what was expected, and are arriving very late to the game. Many people expected a good Focus/Fiesta ST competitor, and the ST's are due for a refresh shortly. The GTI, GLI, ST seem to be leaving their Japanese competition behind right now, and with the two not even in the market yet potential buyers are more and more likely to just give up for a VW or Ford selling under MSRP instead of waiting(and have an established aftermarket), to just pay for a car with a markup(and have to wait for aftermarket to catch up to the new gen).

I get that they want the Type-R to be their king of the hill, but with it supposed to be 300+HP, I am not understanding why they are(possibly) releasing cars that make under 200HP, when their direct competition is making 210-250HP and 250-270TQ, not counting the OEM provided tunes/packages that can give more on top of that.

I get that the Si is more about a fun to drive than power, a "drivers car", but those are also fitting the same market. I can see that some people see the GTI as a bit pricey, or the ST as a bit aggressively styled, but I don't see that as a reason for the Si to not deliver at least similar levels of factory performance to them.

Opinions?
IMO you should stay away from Nissan. I came from a Nismo AWD Juke and one would think with 197hp it could get out of its own way but it was actually at least a half second slower than my 2017 Hatch. Now, keep in mind I had the CVT AWD which was a superbly fun car to drive esp in the rain, but my experience with Nissan CVTs are they just aren't up to par. One would think that Nissan, who has been doing CVTs longer than just about everyone else would have a good CVT but these Honda CVTs are 10x better. As far as the Sentra turbo/Nismo goes I personally think it will be faster than the Juke but it isn't going to be worth more than 21-22k and I have a feeling Nissan is going to price it a bit higher than that.
 

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What really bugs me is that people complained(not specifically here but in general) the NISMO Sentra is just an SR Turbo + NISMO suspension and interior exterior pkg, and it sounds like the Si will mostly be the same but will have LSD and 2hp/tq more than the NISMO. (based on rumor the Si just uses a CR-V 1.5T)

For me, these two cars are just not holding up to what was expected, and are arriving very late to the game. Many people expected a good Focus/Fiesta ST competitor, and the ST's are due for a refresh shortly. The GTI, GLI, ST seem to be leaving their Japanese competition behind right now, and with the two not even in the market yet potential buyers are more and more likely to just give up for a VW or Ford selling under MSRP instead of waiting(and have an established aftermarket), to just pay for a car with a markup(and have to wait for aftermarket to catch up to the new gen).

I get that they want the Type-R to be their king of the hill, but with it supposed to be 300+HP, I am not understanding why they are(possibly) releasing cars that make under 200HP, when their direct competition is making 210-250HP and 250-270TQ, not counting the OEM provided tunes/packages that can give more on top of that.

I get that the Si is more about a fun to drive than power, a "drivers car", but those are also fitting the same market. I can see that some people see the GTI as a bit pricey, or the ST as a bit aggressively styled, but I don't see that as a reason for the Si to not deliver at least similar levels of factory performance to them.

Opinions?
Also, from the wreck that I had, where the other car was only going maybe 20-25mph and this much damage was done, I'm not recommending Nissan for their build quality either. :/

Honda Civic 10th gen Honda/Nissan disappointing with Si/Sentra NISMO? IMG_20170130_131739


Honda Civic 10th gen Honda/Nissan disappointing with Si/Sentra NISMO? IMG_20170130_134520
 


jk147

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I mean in the grand scheme of things, Honda is never about this pure power pure performance mentality. It was always about minimalism, efficiency and getting most of what you have. I am sure that the 10 gen civic impressed quite a lot of people, but with the history of Si this is not unexpected. It is not like 9th gen was this smoldering beat that smoked most of its competitors. Si is middle of the road, balance between reliability, enough performance and fun factor to have you come back for more.
 
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zx2down

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I mean in the grand scheme of things, Honda is never about this pure power pure performance mentality. It was always about minimalism, efficiency and getting most of what you have. I am sure that the 10 gen civic impressed quite a lot of people, but with the history of Si this is not unexpected. It is not like 9th gen was this smoldering beat that smoked most of its competitors. Si is middle of the road, balance between reliability, enough performance and fun factor to have you come back for more.
Well first, the new Civic is not "minimalist" Just look at how aggressive even the base model looks. It's also not getting the "most" out of what it has if it's really 190HP and not making more power than Fords 1.6T with 200HP, or Nissan'ss 215HP 1.6T(still not sure why that engine is not in the Sentra).

When I was a kid(97-02 range) the Si was the sports compact that you had to meet or beat. It was solidly in the upper middle of the pack. The problem is that when the rest of the Pack started to meet Honda in handling, and build quality, they also picked up turbo's and superchargers, but Honda stayed with a high revving i4, which is fine. I fully agree that a high revving engine can be VERY fun. The problem is that when the market started to get to 200, 220, 230, 250, 260HP, Honda stayed at 200, then 200, but with some more TQ. People expected this to be the revision to put the SI back up with the rest of the Pack, but with 190HP, or even 227 if that number is real, it's barely IN the Pack. Unless the Si is under priced, I just don't know if it can really validate itself in a market where quality is about even anymore and handling/power are really what is helping cars stand out.

What has me looking at the Si is just that it's the ONLY coupe in the market other than the 86 and 2.3T Mustang, which yes it is competing against as you can get the 2.3T with a performance package for about 25-26K.
 

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Well first, the new Civic is not "minimalist" Just look at how aggressive even the base model looks. It's also not getting the "most" out of what it has if it's really 190HP and not making more power than Fords 1.6T with 200HP, or Nissan'ss 215HP 1.6T(still not sure why that engine is not in the Sentra).

When I was a kid(97-02 range) the Si was the sports compact that you had to meet or beat. It was solidly in the upper middle of the pack. The problem is that when the rest of the Pack started to meet Honda in handling, and build quality, they also picked up turbo's and superchargers, but Honda stayed with a high revving i4, which is fine. I fully agree that a high revving engine can be VERY fun. The problem is that when the market started to get to 200, 220, 230, 250, 260HP, Honda stayed at 200, then 200, but with some more TQ. People expected this to be the revision to put the SI back up with the rest of the Pack, but with 190HP, or even 227 if that number is real, it's barely IN the Pack. Unless the Si is under priced, I just don't know if it can really validate itself in a market where quality is about even anymore and handling/power are really what is helping cars stand out.

What has me looking at the Si is just that it's the ONLY coupe in the market other than the 86 and 2.3T Mustang, which yes it is competing against as you can get the 2.3T with a performance package for about 25-26K.

I'm hear to tell you that, from personal experience, that the 1.6T DIG-T in the Juke/Sentra Nismo is not a strong motor. With the 215hp Juke Nismo RS, the best reviews I've read said it still took 6.7 (best case) to get to 60mpg. Now I know 0-60mph is old and irrelevant, but even when I was at highway speed, in both the manual and cvt, the response of the motor from say 40mph to 70mph is terrible!

The look of the Sentra Nismo isn't an issue, I actually like it honestly. If I hadn't purchased my Civic Hatch though I would 100% be in the Hyundai Elantra Turbo right now. For 23k you get more equipment than should be tech possible. Minus sensing stuff you get everything from a civic touring plus more power. This, of course is IMO....
 
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zx2down

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I'm hear to tell you that, from personal experience, that the 1.6T DIG-T in the Juke/Sentra Nismo is not a strong motor. With the 215hp Juke Nismo RS, the best reviews I've read said it still took 6.7 (best case) to get to 60mpg. Now I know 0-60mph is old and irrelevant, but even when I was at highway speed, in both the manual and cvt, the response of the motor from say 40mph to 70mph is terrible!

The look of the Sentra Nismo isn't an issue, I actually like it honestly. If I hadn't purchased my Civic Hatch though I would 100% be in the Hyundai Elantra Turbo right now. For 23k you get more equipment than should be tech possible. Minus sensing stuff you get everything from a civic touring plus more power. This, of course is IMO....
And that comparison is kind of useless as the Juke weighs about 300lbs more than the last Si. No idea why you keep wanting to compare a small SUV against a sport compact car. In my test drive the manual RS had no issues at all, and no one I can find any online review mention any issues with highway acceleration.
 

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And that comparison is kind of useless as the Juke weighs about 300lbs more than the last Si. No idea why you keep wanting to compare a small SUV against a sport compact car. In my test drive the manual RS had no issues at all, and no one I can find any online review mention any issues with highway acceleration.
A juke Manual is about 2900lbs. I assume the civic is 2800-2900?? And if we are to compare them you can bet the juke handles better than the last Si. I love my Sport-ish Hatch but it isn't a canyon carver.
 


jk147

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Well first, the new Civic is not "minimalist" Just look at how aggressive even the base model looks. It's also not getting the "most" out of what it has if it's really 190HP and not making more power than Fords 1.6T with 200HP, or Nissan'ss 215HP 1.6T(still not sure why that engine is not in the Sentra).

When I was a kid(97-02 range) the Si was the sports compact that you had to meet or beat. It was solidly in the upper middle of the pack. The problem is that when the rest of the Pack started to meet Honda in handling, and build quality, they also picked up turbo's and superchargers, but Honda stayed with a high revving i4, which is fine. I fully agree that a high revving engine can be VERY fun. The problem is that when the market started to get to 200, 220, 230, 250, 260HP, Honda stayed at 200, then 200, but with some more TQ. People expected this to be the revision to put the SI back up with the rest of the Pack, but with 190HP, or even 227 if that number is real, it's barely IN the Pack. Unless the Si is under priced, I just don't know if it can really validate itself in a market where quality is about even anymore and handling/power are really what is helping cars stand out.

What has me looking at the Si is just that it's the ONLY coupe in the market other than the 86 and 2.3T Mustang, which yes it is competing against as you can get the 2.3T with a performance package for about 25-26K.
I meant minimalist in design, as in small displacement engine, light weight and almost zero interior luxuries. Aggressiveness and looks are inherited from the base mode, not defined by the Si model.

Civic Si wasn't the leader per se, it was one of the very few options at that time. Sports compact was a thing in the early 2000's but it had very few competitors. The market was flooded with reintroduction of SUVs and gas prices were very low. Most of the major manufactures moved away from sports compact at this point, you see the disappearance of true sports compacts such as MR2, 240SX...etc. On a higher end, Supra, 3000GT, 300ZX.. etc. What Honda offered was using an existing platform (rather than a dedicated platform) and created a sportyish car out of it.

I agree that Honda stagnated at the performance front, you could see that across their lineup even as far as the Acura line. But they had been doing this for a better part of the decade now, nothing new there. They did decide to bring back the R, I guess that is their way of segmenting the new competitors.
 
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zx2down

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Civic Si wasn't the leader per se, it was one of the very few options at that time. Sports compact was a thing in the early 2000's but it had very few competitors. .
ZX2 S/R, Focus SVT, Neon R/T, Neon ACR, Cavalier z24, Sentra SE-R, SE-R Spec.V, Celica GTS, Pontiac Sunfire (with 2.4 option), Impreza 2.5RS... I'm sure I forgot some.

There was lots of direct competition in early 2000's with the Si. Every maker had a car that was just as good as the Si in those times in performance. Honda mostly had on its edge the fact they were very easy to work on, had a larger aftermarket already formed, and very easy to find parts for in comparison to the newer cars that came out to compete with Honda.
 

Stock_07

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There was lots of direct competition in early 2000's with the Si. Every maker had a car that was just as good as the Si in those times in performance. Honda mostly had on its edge the fact they were very easy to work on, had a larger aftermarket already formed, and very easy to find parts for in comparison to the newer cars that came out to compete with Honda.
Agreed and even RSX and pre 2002 integra as well as prelude
 
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zx2down

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Agreed and even RSX and pre 2002 integra as well as prelude
Correct, I was leaving out other Honda's but they were indeed competition to the Si, even if more expensive if I recall.
 

CIVICSPORT

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Well first, the new Civic is not "minimalist" Just look at how aggressive even the base model looks. It's also not getting the "most" out of what it has if it's really 190HP and not making more power than Fords 1.6T with 200HP, or Nissan'ss 215HP 1.6T(still not sure why that engine is not in the Sentra).

When I was a kid(97-02 range) the Si was the sports compact that you had to meet or beat. It was solidly in the upper middle of the pack. The problem is that when the rest of the Pack started to meet Honda in handling, and build quality, they also picked up turbo's and superchargers, but Honda stayed with a high revving i4, which is fine. I fully agree that a high revving engine can be VERY fun. The problem is that when the market started to get to 200, 220, 230, 250, 260HP, Honda stayed at 200, then 200, but with some more TQ. People expected this to be the revision to put the SI back up with the rest of the Pack, but with 190HP, or even 227 if that number is real, it's barely IN the Pack. Unless the Si is under priced, I just don't know if it can really validate itself in a market where quality is about even anymore and handling/power are really what is helping cars stand out.

What has me looking at the Si is just that it's the ONLY coupe in the market other than the 86 and 2.3T Mustang, which yes it is competing against as you can get the 2.3T with a performance package for about 25-26K.
Hence the Type R. Competition has gone so upscale is performance and pricing that now Honda has had to slot in a new level of Civic to compete. The Si is just middle rung now. I'm waiting to see more on the Si.
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