Have a turbo and a CVT? Considering a tune? Read this!

[Civics4Ever]

Lol, everything. Looking at the charts on Kt, it seems like Latin to me. I did find on their website where a lot of my answer will prolly be found. Now I just need to do about 6 months of reading. Actually, the 21psi tune it really satisfying. I haven't yet ran a full tank of 93 octane through it yet. Maybe it will improve after a few tanks?

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[gtman]

With Ktuner, it's nice to know all the behind the scenes workings and tables but not necessary. The biggest tweaks you can do are with the "starter" tunes. You can adjust throttle response, turbo spooling and responsiveness and more. This let's you "fine tune" (bad pun, sorry lol) the way your car drives.

 

[vctwhitepearl]

Lol, everything. Looking at the charts on Kt, it seems like Latin to me. I did find on their website where a lot of my answer will prolly be found. Now I just need to do about 6 months of reading. Actually, the 21psi tune it really satisfying. I haven't yet ran a full tank of 93 octane through it yet. Maybe it will improve after a few tanks?

like gtman said, the starter tunes are where it's at, you learn how Ktuner software works. Adjusting all the drop down settings towards aggressive, you will feel the difference. Reading "setting up" information is limited however and you really learn on the fly by doing it. Changing things gradually, seeing feeling the effects, looking at log files etc....tweaking some more....what really helps here is getting Tunerview installed on your phone or tablet, you will see the parameters directly. If you start adding psi to the boost tables, you are officially on your own. I can tell you I've added up to 9 psi along the way at one point and it turns the car into a screamer. So easy does it don't f with ignition or timing let the ECU adjust it or you will break something..... there are tools in the tables to help you taper your adjustments.... Sonicgreywing turbo targets are now 1 psi higher than 21 starter base from 3500 rpm on up, early spool, quick adjust drop downs are aggressive and that's plenty. That gives 7 psi above factory stock, at my own risk mind you.

 

[varge]

Hi guys, I know this is a CVT topic, but I guess we agree that KTuner operation and tweaking is the same on a 6MT once you get past the 4k rpm threshold ;-)
So, what I wanted to ask you is if you are seeing the car operating in closed or open loop past 4k rpm in your cars, and what the default values are in your WOT enrichment tables (11,5 or 10,5 or so AFR)
Although I own a European 6MT, I have lower boost until 4k and have 23 from 4500-5500 which is tapered to 20 at 6500. There doesn't seem to be any way to provide more power once you get past 5600-5700rpm unless we change the turbo, but building a larger area "under the curve" is very good for real life driving.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

Hi guys, I know this is a CVT topic, but I guess we agree that KTuner operation and tweaking is the same on a 6MT once you get past the 4k rpm threshold ;-)
So, what I wanted to ask you is if you are seeing the car operating in closed or open loop past 4k rpm in your cars, and what the default values are in your WOT enrichment tables (11,5 or 10,5 or so AFR)
Although I own a European 6MT, I have lower boost until 4k and have 23 from 4500-5500 which is tapered to 20 at 6500. There doesn't seem to be any way to provide more power once you get past 5600-5700rpm unless we change the turbo, but building a larger area "under the curve" is very good for real life driving.

@varge
Not so much the turbo, as it is the whole system design.

Explanation:
Your engine was designed in such a way that it is most efficient between 1900 - 5500rpm (M/T model). That means that the valve timing and camshaft profiles were made in such a way that your engine "breathes" best between those speeds. That's why you have the most torque in that region. Another thing is that as the RPM increases, it gets harder and harder to get the optimal amount of air and fuel into the cylinder AND burn it at the optimal rate. The faster the engine turns, the less time there is to ingest, compress, combust, and release (exhaust). This affects your ignition timing, which means you start the burn process earlier than you want so that the flame dies just before the exhaust valve opens.

- Thermodynamics
(Without getting scientific) You cannot transfer heat and convert it into energy efficiently beyond a certain point where the ambient temperature and cylinder pressure start to make more impact.

- Cylinder geometry
They are not built in similar patterns; some engines make the pistons move faster and they basically have less time to do the complete otto cycle (intake, compression, combustion, exhaust).
For example: A motorcycle engine revs really high, but produces less torque.

- Friction
At a specific point during combustion (due to higher RPMs), there is a lot of friction in the engine. Torque is basically the amount of force required to create rotation; when friction increases - the amount of torque decreases.

The 1.5L FI engine's are VTC (Variable Timing Control), which is controlled by the ECU. Since there is only 1 Lobe, the valves are always set to one particluar height. Conversly, if you had another larger Lobe (like a VTEC design) - then you could have another valve opened wider and for longer. This would help exspel exhaust flow and provide the ability to reach higher sustained power at a given RPM.
With VTC, you actually have better scavenging, lower combustion temps, and turbo response.

So, if you want the ability to achieve the power band above the 5500-5700rpm mark - you will need an entirely new engine/system.
I would prefer VTC design over over others. However, it is probably not the optimum for the extremist - it operates far more efficiently.

Pheeew....hope that information explains a bit more than what you requested, other than what the AFRs were? I just went off on a tangent....

P.S.
You should be operating on 'Closed Loop' which is adaptable.

 

[varge]

Man, there is so much room in this specific engine design for more power without messing with anything other than the supply of air (bigger turbo). The OEM turbo simply cannot deliver the required CFM to keep producing power efficiently.
My question was very practical, and not about how to make power. I seek other KTuner user's input on specific operations.
However, thanks for taking the time to provide part of the theory behind engine operation.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

Hi guys, I know this is a CVT topic, but I guess we agree that KTuner operation and tweaking is the same on a 6MT once you get past the 4k rpm threshold ;-)
So, what I wanted to ask you is if you are seeing the car operating in closed or open loop past 4k rpm in your cars, and what the default values are in your WOT enrichment tables (11,5 or 10,5 or so AFR)
Although I own a European 6MT, I have lower boost until 4k and have 23 from 4500-5500 which is tapered to 20 at 6500. There doesn't seem to be any way to provide more power once you get past 5600-5700rpm unless we change the turbo, but building a larger area "under the curve" is very good for real life driving.

Man, there is so much room in this specific engine design for more power without messing with anything other than the supply of air (bigger turbo). The OEM turbo simply cannot deliver the required CFM to keep producing power efficiently.
My question was very practical, and not about how to make power. I seek other KTuner user's input on specific operations.
However, thanks for taking the time to provide part of the theory behind engine operation.

Apologies for not understanding your initial concern. You were referring to the requirement of a bigger turbo to make more power past 5600-5700rpm.
So, if you want more power then YES, an upgraded turbo will achieve that. However, your RPM concern will remain unanswered.
Cheers.

 

[10GenPearlSi]

I am not that familiar with base engines so if I stray too far then please let me know. It may be possible to increase the power under the curve and bump it closer to redline by getting a good cold air intake like the Cobra. Even though our turbos start running out of air it helps if there is more air available. Also some have bumped up the ignition a degree or two above 5000 rpm. Good fuel helps too.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

I am not that familiar with base engines so if I stray too far then please let me know. It may be possible to increase the power under the curve and bump it closer to redline by getting a good cold air intake like the Cobra. Even though our turbos start running out of air it helps if there is more air available. Also some have bumped up the ignition a degree or two above 5000 rpm. Good fuel helps too.

Yes and No.

YES, you can increase power with an air intake
If you increase the velocity to aid in the demand, a tune can prove somewhat beneficial. This varies from engine to engine based on liter size, fuel / octane, and overall engine efficiency. This can be achieved even with a drop-in filter and the stock air box.
The intake throttle body is the component demanding the air volume and the compressor is the one forcing more air into the cylinders. So, the engine is damanding volume for "itself" (which is 1.5L) and the turbo is supplying it with more by compressing it. The turbo is doing the work, so providing the inlet with the less restriction (velocity) - you can obtain an increase of power.

NO, the intake does not determine the power above thermodynamic efficiency
(or as you asked "bumping power closer to redline")
Advancing ignition (increasing) aids in getting past ignition delay; which determines how much time it takes to fully ignite the fuel with the spark. On our 1.5L (being a closed loop system), it will adjust the ignition based on engine temperature, throttle position, and engine load to advance. The Knock Sensor is utilized to reduce the timing when engine knock occurs.
KTuner (in particular) on their base & starter tunes, does not allow the knock control any more value than .49 on any octane above 91+. That is a superb value to reach; which would provide for MBT.

Good for you @10GenPearlSi ?

 

[Hollywoo0220]

Since the question of increasing power to redline has come up several times recently, I would like to exacerbate a little on that topic.

The rev limiter would have to be removed. This would be involved in a custom DME. With the limiter removed then you'd be able to blow it up if you wanted to.

To support the higher revs, the vehicle would need the engine internals worked on. Stronger camshaft(s), valves, valve springs (Head work). Depending on the strength of the rotating assembly at the core of the engine, you could even be looking at crank/piston/rod work as well.

Then you'd have to start looking at the transmission. If it will be able to support the higher revs. What I mean by this is if the clutches, orbitals, front pump (etc..), input/output shafts, will be able to withstand the rise in pressures and temperatures.

If you've ever noticed, mechanics and hobbyists that build track cars are usually working on their cars more than they are racing them or even driving them. They build it to blow it up, then build it again....
The competitive aspect of racing and the learning of the knowledge you get from building to the "my specification" is absolutely priceless. Anyone can play a game or pass a test, but it is in the field where you learn.
(BREAK)

Redline on vehicles are there for a reason - to keep the user from destroying the engine.
At Max Power RPM, shift. You will fall in horsepower and land right back into max torque and accelerate much smoother PLUS generate a bit less heat in the process.
If by chance, the tune you are using is not characteristic of the power band - then, get a custom tune that will achieve the power band you hope to achieve (given your application of course).

Be patient and mindful, however at the utmost methodical and reasonable.

@gtman
Apologies for filling your post, but this is where some of the questions were presented.

 

[vctwhitepearl]

Hi guys, I know this is a CVT topic, but I guess we agree that KTuner operation and tweaking is the same on a 6MT once you get past the 4k rpm threshold ;-)
So, what I wanted to ask you is if you are seeing the car operating in closed or open loop past 4k rpm in your cars, and what the default values are in your WOT enrichment tables (11,5 or 10,5 or so AFR)
Although I own a European 6MT, I have lower boost until 4k and have 23 from 4500-5500 which is tapered to 20 at 6500. There doesn't seem to be any way to provide more power once you get past 5600-5700rpm unless we change the turbo, but building a larger area "under the curve" is very good for real life driving.

This did start as a "stock road tuning CVT 1.5T" topic and the possible further performance boost adjustments with stock turbo. 6MT adjustments might be similar, but you are fully in control of your ratio's.
The 1.5T CVT @ WOT never approaches red line, the CVT/ ECU keeps it in the power band throughout the pull.
I think these are ktuner's closed loop default settings for CVT 21 PSI out of my current setup. I'm not sure if this helps you see how the car operates. I wouldn't know where to begin to tweak anything below or even if it's needed.

 

[varge]

This did start as a "stock road tuning CVT 1.5T" topic and the possible further performance boost adjustments with stock turbo. 6MT adjustments might be similar, but you are fully in control of your ratio's.
The 1.5T CVT @ WOT never approaches red line, the CVT/ ECU keeps it in the power band throughout the pull.
I think these are ktuner's closed loop default settings for CVT 21 PSI out of my current setup. I'm not sure if this helps you see how the car operates. I wouldn't know where to begin to tweak anything below or even if it's needed.

Thanks VCT! This is part of what I'm looking for.
There is also a table for WOT enrichment (should be visible in a drop down list from the main boost table)
Also if you datalog a pull, you can tell if it's running closed loop by checking the values of STFT

Thanks again for your help!

 

[10GenPearlSi]

Yes and No.


NO, the intake does not determine the power above thermodynamic efficiency
(or as you asked "bumping power closer to redline")

What I was thinking about in my comment was IMW's post of intakes. It shows power increasing above 5000 rpm with the Cobra where the stock intake starts falling off. I was thinking that there might be a similar, though diminished, effect on base models. However, the Si turbo breaths freer at the higher revs.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

What I was thinking about in my comment was IMW's post of intakes. It shows power increasing above 5000 rpm with the Cobra where the stock intake starts falling off. I was thinking that there might be a similar, though diminished, effect on base models. However, the Si turbo breaths freer at the higher revs.

That's right @10GenPearlSi
- there is a slight gain up high and you see that for a very short period of time until you reach Max Power.
- on the Si & CRVs, just remember that they have the 9 Fin / +1mm Exducers vs the 11 Fins on the other 1.5L models; thus, more power in the higher RPM band.

 

[vctwhitepearl]

Thanks VCT! This is part of what I'm looking for.
There is also a table for WOT enrichment (should be visible in a drop down list from the main boost table)
Also if you datalog a pull, you can tell if it's running closed loop by checking the values of STFT

Thanks again for your help!

Here's the WOT table.....can you explain closed/ open loop WOT enrichment? I'll run a datalog next time I'm out and about Thanks

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