full review, writeup, and installation steps: ctr subs, amp, center channel, and door speakers

[ctrmofo]

yes sorry, on the sub. i have a p3sd4-8 and keep losing my bass with the stock amp. i was hoping to just use the lc2i but im not sure. wanted to use a fix86 for the rest of the speakers with the upgrades youve done. been out of installing for a long time. now everythings interconnected.

ok, that's to be expected as we discovered and documented in this thread. the hu sees a different and much smaller load when you feed the stock sub speaker level output into the external. it then thinks, "oh crap...ohm is less than 2 ohms of the oem sub," so it shuts off bass signal to the sub line for protection. what could also happen and has happened to us when we did the research - the entire system shuts off all sounds even though a song is still playing on the hu. you'd have to turn off the the hu and reboot it to cycle back on. this would happen every 15 mins.

yes, you can just use the lc2i which we've shown in this thread. all the bass signal will come back to feed the lc2i. that's the simplest and cleanest approach with the least amount of investment and work quite frankly.

yes, you can alternatively use fix86, but that will require you to run lots more wires back and forth from and to the stock amp located in the front passenger footwell.

therefore, lc2i, mono amp, and upgraded sub results in excellent bass performance in the cleanest and simplest manner with easier troubleshooting if needed. you can upgrade all the other speakers and use the stock amp. you'd be surprised how good it is without blowing the bank or increase complexity of the install. i would start there then move to next level if it's not good enough for your personal taste.

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[wayoutwest]

If you’re in my product reviews FB group, there are people looking for the other half often. Should also reply to thread on there.

If you’re in my product reviews FB group, there are people looking for the other half often. Should also reply to thread on there.

Yes - i am in that group and someone has already replied and it is spoken for. Thanks, by the way, for all you have contributed to this thread, and the CTR community in general.

cheers,
dave

 

[ctrmofo]

Yes - i am in that group and someone has already replied and it is spoken for. Thanks, by the way, for all you have contributed to this thread, and the CTR community in general.

cheers,
dave

ah great then!

kind words...many thanks!

 

[SCOPESYS]

ok, that's to be expected as we discovered and documented in this thread. the hu sees a different and much smaller load when you feed the stock sub speaker level output into the external. it then thinks, "oh crap...ohm is less than 2 ohms of the oem sub," so it shuts off bass signal to the sub line for protection. what could also happen and has happened to us when we did the research - the entire system shuts off all sounds even though a song is still playing on the hu. you'd have to turn off the the hu and reboot it to cycle back on. this would happen every 15 mins.

.

the hu sees a different and much smaller load when you feed the stock sub speaker level output into the external. it then thinks, "oh crap...ohm is less than 2 ohms of the oem sub," so it shuts off bass signal to the sub line for protection.

Please could you clarify

You are feeding the SUB output from the HU (or the HU's Oem amp) to the addon amp, that is expecting a signal that would normally go to the oem speaker.

Are you saying that the HU (or HU's OEM Amp) shuts down because it sees too HIGH a resistance or too Low a resistance. ?

Either cases could be easily overcome.

(a) If The New Amps input is say 2 Ohms:
and the HU does not like that low 2 ohms, (because it expect 4 ohms), then all you have to do is put an additional 2 ohm resistor in series with on of the lead to the Amp.
( You will then get 50% of the output dropped across the resistor, but you are going to set the AMP gain in any case, so it can be compensated for)

or

(b) If The New Amps input is say high resistance (>>> 4 Ohms)
and the HU does not like that high resistance, (because it expect 4 ohms), then all you have to do is put a 4 (or 5 ohm) ohm resistor ACROSS the leads to the Amp.

Resistors should be high wattage... There are nice Mountable 100W resistors that would be ideal, and can be mounted securely with a couple of screws/bolts.
(They will dissipate heat well, and stay reasonably cool, especially is you mount them onto a large metal surface ares)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Watt-...ound-Resistor-1-2-3-4-6-8-10-Ohm/232458049204
Note: In case (b) with the 4-5 ohm across the leads -- you might benefit from a slightly higher resistor (if the HU will not shut down), because then the HU will not be running so much Max Watts into the load, and will run cooler, save wasted energy, and might even have a less distorted output at that lower max wattage.
ie maybe 10 Ohms (50W)


Today, I just completed a 4 ohm X 10 load for testing the Honda 10 Channel Amps (as used in Si & Touring). (as well as the 4 channel HU internal Amps HUs)
Plan is to get some quantitative measurements to what these Honda Amps are actually doing in terms of Frequency response, distortion, and variations with simulated car speed.

Used the 4 Ohm 100W Resistors I reference above in the Load Matching comments.

 

[Kane666]

do i need another amp with the lc2i or can i just use the lc2i? when the sub was working i was fine with the output even in the stock crappy box for all of 10 minutes. also, i am running the rockford fosgate sub at 2 ohms and it is still dropping the bass. is the stock amp looking for 4 ohms? because my stock sub measures 2.5.

i will say everything has been swapped out except my front woofers and the c pillars of course. just havent gotten to it yet. i dont know if that would be affecting my aftermarket sub until they are switched out.

 

[ctrmofo]

the hu sees a different and much smaller load when you feed the stock sub speaker level output into the external. it then thinks, "oh crap...ohm is less than 2 ohms of the oem sub," so it shuts off bass signal to the sub line for protection.

Please could you clarify

You are feeding the SUB output from the HU (or the HU's Oem amp) to the addon amp, that is expecting a signal that would normally go to the oem speaker.

Are you saying that the HU (or HU's OEM Amp) shuts down because it sees too HIGH a resistance or too Low a resistance. ?

Either cases could be easily overcome.

(a) If The New Amps input is say 2 Ohms:
and the HU does not like that low 2 ohms, (because it expect 4 ohms), then all you have to do is put an additional 2 ohm resistor in series with on of the lead to the Amp.
( You will then get 50% of the output dropped across the resistor, but you are going to set the AMP gain in any case, so it can be compensated for)

or

(b) If The New Amps input is say high resistance (>>> 4 Ohms)
and the HU does not like that high resistance, (because it expect 4 ohms), then all you have to do is put a 4 (or 5 ohm) ohm resistor ACROSS the leads to the Amp.

Resistors should be high wattage... There are nice Mountable 100W resistors that would be ideal, and can be mounted securely with a couple of screws/bolts.
(They will dissipate heat well, and stay reasonably cool, especially is you mount them onto a large metal surface ares)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-Watt-...ound-Resistor-1-2-3-4-6-8-10-Ohm/232458049204
Note: In case (b) with the 4-5 ohm across the leads -- you might benefit from a slightly higher resistor (if the HU will not shut down), because then the HU will not be running so much Max Watts into the load, and will run cooler, save wasted energy, and might even have a less distorted output at that lower max wattage.
ie maybe 10 Ohms (50W)


Today, I just completed a 4 ohm X 10 load for testing the Honda 10 Channel Amps (as used in Si & Touring). (as well as the 4 channel HU internal Amps HUs)
Plan is to get some quantitative measurements to what these Honda Amps are actually doing in terms of Frequency response, distortion, and variations with simulated car speed.

Used the 4 Ohm 100W Resistors I reference above in the Load Matching comments.

clarification as requested: when i say hu, i mean hu and amp as one integrated system. how honda does it, i don't know whether it's in the hu or the oem amp or combo of the 2. clarification is this - the hu sees a lower than 2 ohm load (stock sub is 2 ohms high wattage) at the new amp's input which to the hu is lower than it's limit...so seeing too low of a load. simple test of this was running a new sub at 1 ohm load (dual 2 ohm voice coils in parallel) and within 10-15 mins all sounds shut down.

agree with preloading with resistors as shown to "fool" the hu into what it thinks it should be seeing. however, installing such is not the most aesthetically pleasing as you can see. not only that, you cannot tune the bass signal as you can with the lc2i or fix86 or other bass tuning solutions. it's just bringing back a signal to a certain degree.

as you may know: stock doors, center, and c-pillar speakers are all 4 ohms loads whereas the stock sub is 2 ohms.

why just 10 channels? should be 12 channels...where's the simulation load for center and sub? the hatchback touring model has exactly same 12 speaker system as the type r.

very interested in what you'll find out on the frequency response though and distortions etc. with that pic you posted. let us know what you find out.

 

[ctrmofo]

do i need another amp with the lc2i or can i just use the lc2i? when the sub was working i was fine with the output even in the stock crappy box. also, i am running the rockford fosgate sub at 2 ohms and it is still dropping the bass. is the stock amp looking for 4 ohms? because my stock sub measures 2.5.

i will say everything has been swapped out except my front woofers and the c pillars of course. just havent gotten to it yet. i dont know if that would be affecting my aftermarket sub until they are switched out.

you need an amp to power the sub. the lc2i is just a signal processor to bring back the bass signal and has no amp power to power the sub. flow is this (see pic):

stock sub signal ==> lc2i high level input
lc2i low/line level output ==> new amp's low/line level input
new amp's speaker/sub level output ==> your rockford sub

stock sub is 2 ohms and hu is looking for 2 ohms.

 

[Kane666]

damn i was hoping i could get away without another amp and just use the lc2i to bring back the signal since im still at 2 ohms. any jl audio amps you like? i was thinking the rd500/1 or the mx300/1 or 500/1.

 

[ctrmofo]

damn i was hoping i could get away without another amp and just use the lc2i to bring back the signal since im still at 2 ohms. any jl audio amps you like? i was thinking the rd500/1 or the mx300/1 or 500/1.

don't do the mx series since they're marine level amps for water protection and limited functional tweaking ability.

rd, jx, and xd series are all perfectly fine and vary from low to higher price. all are nice modern class d amps in small chassis running very cool. matter of how much you want to spend.

i have xd600/1v2 but you don't need 600w rms. can't remember which sub you have but 300-400w rms is quite plenty.

 

[Kane666]

im always wishing i never got rid of my old early 2000s slash 500/1 v2. i dont know what i was thinking lol. if i need an amp im just going to do a different sub as well and a custom box in the corner. damn cars. thank for the help as always

 

[SCOPESYS]

clarification as requested: when i say hu, i mean hu and amp as one integrated system. how honda does it, i don't know whether it's in the hu or the oem amp or combo of the 2. clarification is this - the hu sees a lower than 2 ohm load (stock sub is 2 ohms high wattage) at the new amp's input which to the hu is lower than it's limit...so seeing too low of a load. simple test of this was running a new sub at 1 ohm load (dual 2 ohm voice coils in parallel) and within 10-15 mins all sounds shut down.

The Lc21 has an Input impedance of 20,000 Ohms
This should not OVERLOAD the Honda amp !!! that is designed to "badly" drive a 2 Ohm Load.
If anything, the Honda amp might shut down because it does not see any significant load.. so adding say a 4 ohm resistor may be needed.

If you put a 1 Ohm Load on the Honda Amp, it wil TRY to output up to twice the Power that it was designed to give into 2 ohm, and it will overheat, and the amps safety will shut it down as it overheats, to protect the output stage.
So, no, you cannot put a 1 Ohm Speaker on it and expect to get TWICE the Wattage (for very long)

12 volt rail
4 Ohms = 26 W 3A
2 Ohms = 52 W 6A
1 Ohm = 104W 12A (assuming you have suitably thick wires !!)

Only way to get More Power, is to have an Amp that has a DC-DC inverter in it, and bumps the Power Rail up to a Higher Voltage

ie 48 rail, 2 Ohms = 1152 Watts !!!

The HONDA AMP Output stage Drivers are not designed to give 104 Watts, no matter how big their heatsink is !!

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

agree with preloading with resistors as shown to "fool" the HU into what it thinks it should be seeing. however, installing such is not the most aesthetically pleasing as you can see. not only that, you cannot tune the bass signal as you can with the lc2i or fix86 or other bass tuning solutions. it's just bringing back a signal to a certain degree.

Adding a Resistor across the input lines to the Lc21 should not be any issue at all.
You can add it anywhere along the original Sub Lines that come from the Honda Amp.. does not have to be right at the lc2i terminals.
You are not even going to see it !!

I assumed you are using some form of Tuning device (lc2i etc). Even if you are not, and just want more WATTS of Honda Unbalance Bass Audio, your high power Amp should be able to take as it's input whatever you feed it within reason,, even if you have to Attenuate it, if it cannot take the full Honda Amp speaker output level,

as you may know: stock doors, center, and c-pillar speakers are all 4 ohms loads whereas the stock sub is 2 ohms.

why just 10 channels? should be 12 channels...where's the simulation load for center and sub? the hatchback touring model has exactly same 12 speaker system as the type r.

very interested in what you'll find out on the frequency response though and distortions etc. with that pic you posted. let us know what you find out.

10 Channel includes Center and sub.
The extra two channels when going to 12 Channels are just another pair of mid frequency speakers, just to add to the mess !!!

10 Channels because I only have a a 2 Door Touring HU (10 channels), a Si HU + amp (10 Channels) and a Hatch EX HU (4 Channel).

Maybe if I see a $4800 12 Channel HU and a $610 matching 12 channel Amp on sale from a wrecked Sports or R at a VERY GOOD give away price, I might be tempted - but I am not holding my breath !!

In any case the additional 2 channels on the Hatch Sports & R come off a different plug, so they can be added if I ever get into doing anything with the 12 Channel systems.

At the moment, I think any weakness in the system is common to both the 10 & 12 Channel systems, so working on the 10 Channel should be sufficient .. especially as I have the 10 Channel in the SI.

What I will find interesting is the difference between HUs that have the Amp Built in, and the HUs that have a separate AMP, communicated with over a Digital Link.

One thing have learnt (which was not Obvious)
The 10 Channel HU's can only talk to their correct 10 channel amps ?
The 12 Channel HU's can only talk to their correct 12 channel amps ?
ie Hatch Sport Touring and R are both 12 Channel, but I do not believe they can talk to each other's AMPs.. that have different Part Numbers and prices.

(Or my current Ebay spare 10 channel Si amp is defective )

They communicate over a single line Digital Audio link - the $64,000 question being, how standard is that digital protocol ? I bet since it is 10 channel / 12 Channel , that it is some Honda custom system ... but nothing that a Logic Analyze cannot figure out

ALL FUN !!!

 

[ctrmofo]

^^^ lol, yes you’ve confirmed all we’ve found thus far actually.

That’s what I found...less than 2 ohm sub will trigger protection of stock amp since it’s too low of a load and overheats the stock amp. That’s why I said the system will shut down and was 10-15 mins timed that it would do that. It takes about 15 mins for it to come back on and will repeat the cycle.

Yes, LC2i is 20K ohms input impedance as is most if not all signal processors by design - to keep the load high and not overdrive the source.

Yes, LC2i is the signal processor and will give both full range output and bass frequencies output to be used to feed full range amps and sub amps.

Too many Honda models for me to keep track of and only concern about the Hatchback Touring and the Type R models only in this thread because both have the same 12 speakers system. Any other model doesn’t apply here because they’re different setup from Honda with different HU and OEM amp too. The Navi and voice features also are applied differently. In the Hatchback Touring and Type R, those 2 features play through the center channel vs other models with those features play through the front door speakers.

We’re more interested in your research for the 12-speaker Type R / Hatchback Sport Touring system here.

 

[Nitroturtle]

So I'm unclear after reading the entire thread, if only adding the RF amp and a sub is the LC2i required to avoid issues? I understand that the LC2i adds additional clarity to the bass, but I have no plans to move beyond sub/amp/center upgrades.

Thanks for all you've shared. I actually just picked up my CTR from Columbus last week. I'm about 2h southeast, but I frequently travel to Columbus as our main office is in Polaris. Would love to connect some time and check out this monster CTR it sounds like you've built.

 

[Nitroturtle]

So I'm unclear after reading the entire thread, if only adding the RF amp and a sub is the LC2i required to avoid issues? I understand that the LC2i adds additional clarity to the bass, but I have no plans to move beyond sub/amp/center upgrades.

Thanks for all you've shared. I actually just picked up my CTR from Columbus last week. I'm about 2h southeast, but I frequently travel to Columbus as our main office is in Polaris. Would love to connect some time and check out this monster CTR it sounds like you've built.

Oh who am I kidding, I'll probably end up upgrading the whole thing in the end. I'll just go ahead and order the LC2i. What's another $70 added to the $3k I've blown on 'accessories' since picking it up Monday.

 

[ctrmofo]

Oh who am I kidding, I'll probably end up upgrading the whole thing in the end. I'll just go ahead and order the LC2i. What's another $70 added to the $3k I've blown on 'accessories' since picking it up Monday.

LOL!!! Sorry for the money pit but we did some R&D and figured some things out...keeping things as simple but effective as possible - so we can focus on the driving experience first and foremost then some nice tunes to add.

Catching up here so thanks for kind words. Yes, we have get togethers sometimes in Columbus metro to compare notes along with going to Columbus Cars & Coffee. I usually bring the Lambo or CTR so the guys can see the audio setup in person...along with built and tuned car. Join the Ohio Type R-Factor FB group where most of us hang out at. Enjoy!

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