For tuned CVT's - TSP Stage 1 vs. KTuner 21 "test"

gtman

Senior Member
First Name
Mitch
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Threads
328
Messages
16,661
Reaction score
24,352
Location
USA
Website
www.civicx.com
Vehicle(s)
2017 Cosmic Blue EX-L Sedan
Vehicle Showcase
2
If you have a CVT and are thinking about upgrading your aggressively tweaked KTuner 21 tune to the TSP Stage 1, read on...

I recently did a back to back road test and I'm posting my impressions here. It's not scientific, but it's honest, unbiased info.

In one corner, we have the KTuner starter 21 with aggressive settings for throttle, spool, ramp, part throttle turbo response and with early spool enabled. In the other corner, it's Map 3 from the TSP stage 1...

The KTuner tune feels really potent down low. Just a little press of the throttle at low-ish rpm and it almost feels "jumpy". Lag is almost non-existent.

The TSP tune almost feels stock by comparison down low. Response is slower compared to the KTuner 21 with the same throttle input and I feel a touch of lag.

I repeatedly tried this same move with both tunes. After going a steady 35mph, I sped up to pass a car. Using a light jab of the throttle. The KTuner made the move with ease. The TSP tune had me disappointed with the lack of oomph with the same throttle input. In time, I realized to get the same lag free, quick acceleration as the KTuner 21, I had to give a deeper throttle press. It was almost like comparing the normal stock tune to the eco stock tune as far as throttle response. This is my only "gripe" with the TSP tune.

If you are used to an aggressively tweaked Starter 21, the TSP tune will disappoint slightly down low. This is on the CVT. I know the MT setup is more potent down low.

Midrange acceleration is similar on both tunes with a slight edge to the TSP map 3.

Above 4000 or so and especially above 5000 rpm, the TSP tune pulls ahead, literally. The aggressive KTuner 21 just loses a head of steam past 5000 rpm. As great as the KTuner tune feels down low, it disappoints up top.

So, the KTuner 21 feels amazing around town and good on the highway but not as good when you really push the rpms. On the other hand, the TSP tune is only "OK" at lower speeds but when pushed, turns into a race car. It loves being in the higher rpms.
--------------

Why do the tunes feel so different? Well, here's my theory keeping in mind I'm not a tuner but I'll give it a shot...

With the KTuner 21 set aggressively with early spool on and the throttle, turbo and spool set aggressively, everything seems to happen quicker... up to a point. The car feels like a bit of a monster with not a lot of throttle. At first it feels like the perfect tune. Then you push it hard at higher rpm and the excitement becomes more like "where did the oomph go?". It's almost like all the power is in the first 2/3 of throttle movement. But this overall setup is great for 90% of driving. Only when you push it hard does it disappoint a bit.

The TSP tune by Derek is a bit different. It definitely feels less responsive at low rpm with the same throttle input but the deeper you go into throttle and the higher the rpm, the better it gets. Throttle seems much more linear. It's like the tune is totally controlled by the pressure applied by your right foot. Sure it takes a more deliberate throttle press to get into the power, but when you get used to it, you realize how beautifully designed this tune is.

I'm guessing the TSP tune doesn't spool early and only has slightly improved tweaks for throttle and ramp. But, that's just a guess. I can also tell you I'm consistently getting a couple mpg more with the TSP tune so the softer low end helps in that regard.

Hope this helps anyone currently running a CVT w/an aggressive KTuner 21 setup thinking about a TSP Stage 1.
Sponsored

 
Last edited:

Myx

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Threads
79
Messages
2,166
Reaction score
2,042
Location
Delaware
Vehicle(s)
2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
If you have a CVT and are thinking about upgrading your aggressively tweaked KTuner 21 tune to the TSP Stage 1, read on...

I recently did a back to back test and I'm posting my impressions here. It's not scientific, but it's honest, unbiased info.

In one corner, we have the KTuner starter 21 with aggressive settings for throttle, spool, ramp, part throttle turbo response and with early spool enabled. In the other corner, it's Map 3 from the TSP stage 1...

The KTuner tune feels really potent down low. Just a little press of the throttle at low-ish rpm and it almost feels "jumpy". Lag is almost non-existent.

The TSP tune almost feels stock by comparison down low. Response is slower compared to the KTuner 21 with the same throttle input and I feel a touch of lag.

I repeatedly tried this same move with both tunes. After going a steady 35mph, I sped up to pass a car. Using a light jab of the throttle. The KTuner made the move with ease. The TSP tune had me disappointed with the lack of oomph with the same throttle input. In time, I realized to get the same lag free, quick acceleration as the KTuner 21, I had to give a deeper throttle press. It was almost like comparing the normal stock tune to the eco stock tune as far as throttle response. This is my only "gripe" with the TSP tune.

If you are used to an aggressively tweaked Starter 21, the TSP tune will disappoint slightly down low. This is on the CVT. I know the MT setup is more potent down low.

Midrange acceleration is similar on both tunes with a slight edge to the TSP map 3.

Above 4000 or so and especially above 5000 rpm, the TSP tune pulls ahead, literally. The aggressive KTuner 21 just loses a head of steam past 5000 rpm. As great as the KTuner tune feels down low, it disappoints up top.

So, the KTuner 21 feels amazing around town and good on the highway but not as good when you really push the rpms. On the other hand, the TSP tune is only "OK" at lower speeds but when pushed, turns into a race car. It loves being in the higher rpms.
--------------

Why do the tunes feel so different? Well, here's my theory keeping in mind I'm not a tuner but I'll give it a shot...

With the KTuner 21 set aggressively with early spool on and the throttle, turbo and spool set aggressively, everything seems to happen quicker... up to a point. The car feels like a bit of a monster with not a lot of throttle. At first it feels like the perfect tune. Then you push it hard at higher rpm and the excitement becomes more like "where did the oomph go?". It's almost like all the power is in the first 2/3 of throttle movement. But this overall setup is great for 90% of driving. Only when you push it hard does it disappoint a bit.

The TSP tune by Derek is a bit different. It definitely feels less responsive at low rpm with the same throttle input but the deeper you go into throttle and the higher the rpm, the better it gets. Throttle seems much more linear. It's like the tune is totally controlled by your right foot. Sure it takes a more deliberate throttle press to get into the power, but when you get used to it, you realize how beautifully designed this tune is.

I'm guessing the TSP tune doesn't spool early and only has slightly improved tweaks for throttle and ramp. But, that's just a guess. I can also tell you I'm consistently getting a couple mpg more with the TSP tune so the softer low end helps in that regard.

Hope this helps anyone running a CVT w/an aggressive KTuner 21 setup thinking about a TSP Stage 1.

Thank your for your assessment of this.
Since those of us can't see what the TSP tune is to make changes (Or a custom tune for that matter), if we want it all, guess it's a matter of requesting a custom tune to have the lows of the Ktuner and the highs of the TSP (or the Custom tune). I'm gonna ask Derek about this and if it holds true, I want this 'Tweak'. There's nothing to say that the Ktuner's aggressive down low is 'dangerous' unless I'm missing somethiing. :)
 
OP
OP
gtman

gtman

Senior Member
First Name
Mitch
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Threads
328
Messages
16,661
Reaction score
24,352
Location
USA
Website
www.civicx.com
Vehicle(s)
2017 Cosmic Blue EX-L Sedan
Vehicle Showcase
2
I just wonder if the early spool and full on aggressive quick adjustments we can make on the KTuner Starter tunes tends to cause the stock turbo to run out of breath quicker. It gives you great driveability with a slightly disappointing top end.

Of course, I'm no tuning expert. But, I'm with you Myx, combining that snappy part throttle response with the ballsy TSP top would be perfection.

The question becomes, is it possible to have both?
 
Last edited:

TypeSiR

Senior Member
Joined
May 15, 2017
Threads
67
Messages
2,091
Reaction score
1,689
Location
On a Twisty Road
Vehicle(s)
1.5T Civic, Fit, MX-5, CTR
Vehicle Showcase
3
Country flag
As disheartening as your experience with tuning, I can't even load TSP or any on-the-fly map switching tune due to my older ECU (2016 EX-T). Official word is to contact dealer to have the ECU upgraded (firmware). I've chosen not to pay (I'm in a warming region) the dealer for this service so that's that and life goes on. Yes, I'm sad, too. :(
 

varge

Senior Member
First Name
George
Joined
Oct 7, 2017
Threads
3
Messages
348
Reaction score
478
Location
Greece
Vehicle(s)
Civic 1.5T 4D Elegance EUDM
Country flag
I just wonder if the early spool and full on aggressive quick adjustments we can make on the KTuner Starter tunes tends to cause the stock turbo to run out of breath quicker. It gives you great driveability with a slightly disappointing top end.

Of course, I'm no tuning expert. But, I'm with you Myx, combining that snappy part throttle response with the ballsy TSP top would be perfection.

The question becomes, is it possible to have both?
It's not about the amount of power that the TSP has down low - don't get confused.
It's only about throttle response - which by the way does not perform "miracles".
The throttle position is translated by the ECU to a "torque request".
in an ideal world, the exact amount of x% TPS would translate to x% of torque possible at Y rpm. That said, the improved throttle response, means that for 10% of throttle you get 20% of available torque (instead of 20% - what an oomph..) then say at 60% of throttle you get everything the ECU / Engine / Turbo has to offer (WOW!!!) then you step on it and nothing happens.
For a direct comparison of down low / mid / high-end torque / power, just WOT on both tunes and compare. Make no mistake, the TSP is stronger throughout the rev range, not just top end.
Lag on the TSP is reduced not by means of throttle response, but by better (and balanced) ramp and spool. For me, the ability to precisely control the torque with my left foot is amazing, and a very basic requirement when tuning. It's about drivability, especially on curvy roads where the added power just adds up to the nice chassis setup ;-)
 


OP
OP
gtman

gtman

Senior Member
First Name
Mitch
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Threads
328
Messages
16,661
Reaction score
24,352
Location
USA
Website
www.civicx.com
Vehicle(s)
2017 Cosmic Blue EX-L Sedan
Vehicle Showcase
2
Varge, keep something in mind. I never said anything about power. More "snappy" (down low) in reference to KTuner was meant to convey livelier throttle response.

Also, this was strictly about the CVT tune which has less torque down low. Is yours also CVT? :cool:;)
 
Last edited:

dallasjhawk

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2016
Threads
24
Messages
4,174
Reaction score
4,124
Location
Royse City, TX
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic EX-T, 2015 Acura RDX AWD Tech
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
Varge, keep something in mind. I never said anything about power. More "snappy" (down low) in reference to KTuner was meant to convey livelier throttle response.

Also, this was strictly about the CVT tune which has less torque down low. Is yours also CVT?
his description of throttle response sounds more like how one of those injen throttle controllers or hondata handles throttle response and not how Ktuner does since we all know Ktuner throttle response has been far superior all along. And since he mentions his left foot, he is probably talking 6MT.
 

Gotch

Senior Member
First Name
Rob
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Threads
17
Messages
783
Reaction score
800
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
2022 Si
Country flag
I actually loaded up my KTuner dual factory/23psi tune last Friday from TSP Stage 1 and noticed the exact same feel as you describe @gtman . On the Si, power feels to fall off at 4-4.5k but down low it’s a beast. I still favour the TSP as it absolutely flies at the top end in comparison.
 
OP
OP
gtman

gtman

Senior Member
First Name
Mitch
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Threads
328
Messages
16,661
Reaction score
24,352
Location
USA
Website
www.civicx.com
Vehicle(s)
2017 Cosmic Blue EX-L Sedan
Vehicle Showcase
2
his description of throttle response sounds more like how one of those injen throttle controllers or hondata handles throttle response and not how Ktuner does since we all know Ktuner throttle response has been far superior all along. And since he mentions his left foot, he is probably talking 6MT.
I was being sarcastic because varge may have missed that this topic was CVT related.
 

julianzh

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2016
Threads
6
Messages
564
Reaction score
271
Location
Quincy
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic EX-t, 2019 GTI Autobahn DSG
Country flag
Is it possible to switch map 3 with map 1 on the fly for tsp tune?
 


OP
OP
gtman

gtman

Senior Member
First Name
Mitch
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Threads
328
Messages
16,661
Reaction score
24,352
Location
USA
Website
www.civicx.com
Vehicle(s)
2017 Cosmic Blue EX-L Sedan
Vehicle Showcase
2
If you mean can the high power Map 3 be inverted so it shows up as the primary tune (tune 1) when you start your car...

Contact TSP or D-Rob and I'm pretty sure they can edit your file to do that (for a small fee).
 
Last edited:

varge

Senior Member
First Name
George
Joined
Oct 7, 2017
Threads
3
Messages
348
Reaction score
478
Location
Greece
Vehicle(s)
Civic 1.5T 4D Elegance EUDM
Country flag
I was being sarcastic because varge may have missed that this topic was CVT related.
It's the right one (foot) lol :) Still, you're right I'm 6MT and I use factory throttle response, so maybe it's just me :)
I know that KTuner throttle response is better than traditional throttle boosters but it still creates a "dead spot" for throttle, where at ~70% TPS in improved II you have TPS.CMD 100% and full boost target, whereas you need to go 90+% at factory response setting for the same target and ~80-85% on TSP. i'd think this is not different for the CVT but of course I could be wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Myx

Myx

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Threads
79
Messages
2,166
Reaction score
2,042
Location
Delaware
Vehicle(s)
2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
It's the right one (foot) lol :) Still, you're right I'm 6MT and I use factory throttle response, so maybe it's just me :)
I know that KTuner throttle response is better than traditional throttle boosters but it still creates a "dead spot" for throttle, where at ~70% TPS in improved II you have TPS.CMD 100% and full boost target, whereas you need to go 90+% at factory response setting for the same target and ~80-85% on TSP. i'd think this is not different for the CVT but of course I could be wrong.
Reminds me of the SprintBooster that I have on my RAV4. Works exactly as you stated. I like the effect either way.
 
OP
OP
gtman

gtman

Senior Member
First Name
Mitch
Joined
Oct 27, 2015
Threads
328
Messages
16,661
Reaction score
24,352
Location
USA
Website
www.civicx.com
Vehicle(s)
2017 Cosmic Blue EX-L Sedan
Vehicle Showcase
2
varge... I appreciate the post. Good tech insight into the throttle differences.
 
Last edited:

Rick71&

New Member
First Name
Rick
Joined
Aug 7, 2019
Threads
1
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Location
Philly
Vehicle(s)
‘19 Sport Touring Hatch (aegean blue)
Country flag
Just curious how is the safety/reliability of
the tune you mention from ktuner? Would I need any other supporting mods to make
sure the internals can handle it?
Sponsored

 


 


Top