Featured FACE LIFT TYPE R SPOTTED? Check out the pic. What do you think?

  1. alvav

    alvav Senior Member

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    Don’t usually like to criticize but, holy shit, are you ever abrasive... have much friends?
     
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  2. Harlaquin

    Harlaquin Senior Member

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    Yes actually, lots. Wanna hang out? Im just not gonna take anyones uninformed attacks kindly. I respond in kind.
     
  3. mecheng32

    mecheng32 Senior Member

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    Downforce is proportionally equal to the square of an objects velocity. Don’t believe me, look at the equation for downforce.

    Fdown = 0.5ClArV²
    where:
    Fdown - Aerodynamic downforce
    Cl- Coefficient of lift
    A- Frontal area
    r- Air density
    V- Object velocity


    So, downforce increases exponentially with velocity, The forces may be lower at low speeds, but they aren’t zero. In theory as the cars velocity increases, so does its downforce (assuming it has a wing). The more you increase the surface area of the wing, increase the angle of attack on the wing (effects Coefficient of lift), or increase velocity, the more downforce you generate.

    The only downside to downforce (pun intended) is added drag, which is countered by adding additional horsepower.

    So the wing does in-fact do something. Anyway what do I know? I’m just an engineer on a longwinded rant.
     
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  4. RedGiant217

    RedGiant217 Senior Member

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    This looks like fun. I guess I just can't help but jump in here.

    Did you actually read and understand the article you linked? It's basically talking about whether it's worth it for people to opt for the spoiler on their Corolla S. That, and installing after market spoilers.
    The truth is, there is no need for a spoiler at low speed because their is negligible lift on the car. The spoiler on the Type R does produce down force, even at low speeds, but it's not really doing anything useful because it's not needed.
    Saying the spoiler on the Type R doesn't produce down force at low speed would be like saying the wings on a plane don't produce lift until you're at the end of the runway. It might not be useful until at higher speed, but it is there.


    Respond with uninformed attacks of your own? Sorry, couldn't resist. You set that one up too well.


    Look, at the end of the day, you seem like a pretty intelligent guy. You seem to have a somewhat lesser understanding of physics, but many of your conclusions are correct. It's just that your understanding of why is often pretty far off. People are going to call you out when they see that you don't really know what you're talking about.

    "Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent." -Proverbs 17:28 ESV
     
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  5. Harlaquin

    Harlaquin Senior Member

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    HI, thanks for responding with facts and actual educated input. I typically only agitate the ones who have the "come at me bro" responses. Those are fun :). So serious questions. First let me reiterate my stance, I never said it didn't do anything at all, I said it was useless at speed typically related to everyday driving in which case it was useless. But in typical forum fashion people just glossed over that point and started hurling insults :). But now my question. So even at speeds that would effectively give a measurable or even useful amount of downforce, would that not be counter productive to front wheel drive? I mean you will get more straight line stability but would not the down force on the rear not cause lift on the drive wheels effectively making the contact patch smaller? Couple that with the drag would you not loose top end speed?
     
  6. Harlaquin

    Harlaquin Senior Member

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    I like you. You get me :)
     
  7. tinyman392

    tinyman392 Senior Member

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    Did you really just post a link about spoilers and not wings? Then make a quote about ignorance?

    You know what, ket's do some math. Formula for lift (downforce = negative lift) is shown here. So we get:

    L = ½pSCv^2 where
    L = lift
    p = air density
    S = surface area of wing
    C = lift coefficient @ designed attack/angle v = air velocity​

    Now, I don't know true values for p, S, and C, so I'll end up rolling them all into 1 constant c, I'll also throw in that ½ too. I can do this since I'm trying to model lift for the CTR under the test conditions Honda used when they made 66 lbs @ 124 MPH.

    Let c = ½pSC
    → L = cv^2 ​

    Let's plug and compute c for the conditions Honda tested at:

    66 = c(124^2)
    → c = 66/124^2 = 0.00429​

    So we get:

    L = 0.00429v^2​

    Now we can (roughly) compute downforce at any speed.

    Most drivers in the midwest (I'm mainly in the Chicagoland area) go between 70 and 80 in a 65 zone and 75-90 in a 70 zone. Some go faster, some go slower, but the bulk of the population follows this. I should also note that most also slow down by about 5-ish MPH at night. I personally do... Wait, I'm not going to publicly admit to speeding. Moving on; let's compute for 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, and 90 MPH respectively (rounded to nearest ½ lb).

    55 MPH: 13.0 lbs
    60 MPH: 15.5 lbs
    65 MPH: 18.0 lbs
    70 MPH: 21.0 lbs
    75 MPH: 24.0 lbs
    80 MPH: 27.5 lbs
    85 MPH: 31.0 lbs
    90 MPH: 34.5 lbs
    124 MPH: 66.0 lbs (sanity check)
    169 MPH: 122.5 lbs​

    When driving around town you'll get 0.5, 1.5, 7.0, and 10.5 lbs of downforce going 10, 20, 40, and 50 MPH, respectively. So, when I'm exiting from one expressway to another entering a clear turn at 70 MPH and exiting at 85 MPH my wing produces 20 lbs of downforce on corner entry, 25+ lbs of downforce mid-corner, and 30 lbs of downforce on corner exit. Or, if I don't feel like hooning as much, I just hold 70-75 MPH while the wing produces 20-25lbs of downforce. It's not much, but it's honest work — Some farmer.
     
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  8. RedGiant217

    RedGiant217 Senior Member

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    Basically, straight line stability is all you want at speed. Drive wheels don't have much to do with that.
    Keep in mind that about 60% of the curb weight is on the front wheels. A little more down force on the back wheels is only going to balance the car.
     
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  9. Harlaquin

    Harlaquin Senior Member

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    See this is how stuff gets done. Thanks for the informative post. And yes I knew what I was posting (wink wink). I love that people caught my quote and posted their own :)
    In all seriousness, Thank you for this info it is informative.
     
  10. tinyman392

    tinyman392 Senior Member

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    Downforce is proportional to the square of velocity (read above to see what that means in computed numbers). In short, the slower you go, the less it'll slow you down in a straight line. Also, as long as you are not slipping, then the addition of the spoiler (with respect to traction on the driven wheels) means moot (drag created is another thing altogether, but this applies regardless of drivetrain). In other words, the CTR slips in 1st and second gear going up to about 45-50 MPH, could the 7-10 lbs of downforce shifting weight away from the front make a difference? Probably not, but it's possible I guess.

    The drag will slow down the car, the CTR is drag limited to 169 MPH. If you remove the wing, you will reduce drag which in theory can improve top speed. Granted you'd also want to get rid of the vortex generators as well.
     
  11. Harlaquin

    Harlaquin Senior Member

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    Yeah after I asked that I remembered the car was a 40/60 split with 60 in front. So yeah I can see the balance with down force. Thanks.
     
  12. aldo

    aldo Senior Member

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    Really like the new Type R coming out, gonna be much cheaper with the same Type R engine and HP and wont have that big dopey wing or those gigantic ugly wheels they got from a lifted truck. Love it!
     
  13. mecheng32

    mecheng32 Senior Member

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    No problem, happy to answer your question. No it wouldn’t be counterproductive at all. First you have the mass of the engine in the front so that combats lift pretty well already, but I’d like to think Honda engineers did their due diligence in all the other aero on the car (smooth underbody, front air curtain, vortex generators, diffuser, and the wing) to combat lift and drag. In fact, the official numbers for the fk8’s drag coefficient is incredibly low (.26). Compare that to the Porsche 911 turbo (.31). The lower the drag coefficient, the more aerodynamically stable, efficient, and quick the car is.
     
  14. Harlaquin

    Harlaquin Senior Member

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    So I mean this as a serious question not stirring the pot :). What advantage does the CTR have with the wing in everyday life that the other 99% of cars on the road without wings don't? I'M not talking racing Im talking just DD. I just figure that everyday driving does little to nothing with a wing as there are what 2 cars in the US currently for sale with a oem wing? R and Subaru? If they help why wouldn't more cars have one?
     
  15. mecheng32

    mecheng32 Senior Member

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    Because most cars are not performance oriented or they weren’t designed with aerodynamics as a priority. And most cars have spoilers, not wings (which spoil the air coming off the rear of the car). This doesn’t create as much aerodynamic force as a wing, which has more surface area, steeper angle of attack, and creates a pressure differential above and below the wing. (High pressure above the wing, low pressure below the wing.)
     
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