Engine just blew!!

[charleswrivers]

(shrug) If nothing else... the thread bringing up LSPI, which I'd heard of and read about a little got me to do some more reading. Looking like GF-6 oil coupled with how one drives would be the ticket. I certainly Poke along at 40 MPH in 6th, turning 1500 RPM regularly and I doubt I'll stop. I'm in vacuum and not trying to accelerate. Just one of many gears I'll let RPMs run low for economy when I'm only maintaining speed on level ground on a mostly empty car. I don't try to accelerate to the point the engines really out of vacuum.

The OPs scenario at 2800 RPM seem a bit on the high side of there LSPI would occur and I'm not sure is applicable... other than the very sudden nature of it. It sounds like it's more of a issue of gas mixing in with the oil on the rings and droplets getting thrown up that spontaneously combust. HP fuel system... more atomized fuel... low resistance rings... low viscosity oils... high cylinder pressures... they all seem to add up. (shrug) When GF-6 is a standard... it'd likely be something I'd look for on a label. There's a split between the GF-6 standards between 0w-16 and the thicker viscosities I haven't read on specifically... and I figure a lighter oil is only going to be that much easier to throw droplets off of. We'll see... it'll be interesting to see how makers go in the coming decade. With CAFE tightening way up in 2025 unless it gets pulled back, even the Civic with under 40 mpgs combined is a good 15 mpg off the average for the most efficient models.

At least the Castrol Magnetec oil I use is on the GF-5/API SN Plus which seems like as high has can be officially certed right now while still supporting my desire to be cheap at about $16/5 quarts. It's what I've been using for a while. It goes in yellow... comes out black... and everything I use it on has yet to explode. I'll just have to see if they bump it to GF-6 or I need to go to something else.​

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[Design]

This topic seems overblown IMHO. There's really no evidence to suggest it's an issue on our powertrains.

https://www.civicx.com/threads/1-5t-amsoil-ss-0w20-uoa-thread.9610/page-18#post-289387

3. There was some discussion related to LSPI. This is a severely misunderstood topic, born out of general ignorance. People read the cheap summary of the Toyota study from the SAE case study and due to a lack of understanding of lubrication engineering principles (and being too cheap to buy the whole study), made the assumption that higher levels of Calcium increase LSPI frequency. Fortunately, I actually purchased the study for myself (~$38) and read and understood the whole thing. SOME clacium-based additives can increase LSPI frequency, but that is not the only factor. LSPI is ultimately caused by the rapid oxidation of oil droplets in the combustion chamber. As a result, it is oxidation stability that ultimately determines LSPI frequency as a root cause, not calcium content. Calcium contributes to that. That being said, Toyota is not concerned with high end oils like AMSOIL's, they are concerned with affordable bulk oils, so the type of additives they use will be wildly different. How do we know which is using clacium phenate and calcium sulfonate, and what's the difference? These are things oil analysis reports don't show you and things oil makers won't divulge. There are ways to increase the oxidation stability of oil, whether by using antioxidants in the oil, or by using a more oxidation-stable base oil. Do not assume that just because an oil has a high level of Calcium that it will not be able to prevent LSPI effectively. Prime example, AMSOIL's new formulation of Signature Series oils, released beginning of September 2017 (this month), scored a 100% LSPI prevention score in the new GM Gen2 Dexos1 testing for LSPI, yet has the highest calcium content of any oil that I know of.

 

[amirza786]

(shrug) If nothing else... the thread bringing up LSPI, which I'd heard of and read about a little got me to do some more reading. Looking like GF-6 oil coupled with how one drives would be the ticket. I certainly Poke along at 40 MPH in 6th, turning 1500 RPM regularly and I doubt I'll stop. I'm in vacuum and not trying to accelerate. Just one of many gears I'll let RPMs run low for economy when I'm only maintaining speed on level ground on a mostly empty car. I don't try to accelerate to the point the engines really out of vacuum.

The OPs scenario at 2800 RPM seem a bit on the high side of there LSPI would occur and I'm not sure is applicable... other than the very sudden nature of it. It sounds like it's more of a issue of gas mixing in with the oil on the rings and droplets getting thrown up that spontaneously combust. HP fuel system... more atomized fuel... low resistance rings... low viscosity oils... high cylinder pressures... they all seem to add up. (shrug) When GF-6 is a standard... it'd likely be something I'd look for on a label. There's a split between the GF-6 standards between 0w-16 and the thicker viscosities I haven't read on specifically... and I figure a lighter oil is only going to be that much easier to throw droplets off of. We'll see... it'll be interesting to see how makers go in the coming decade. With CAFE tightening way up in 2025 unless it gets pulled back, even the Civic with under 40 mpgs combined is a good 15 mpg off the average for the most efficient models.

At least the Castrol Magnetec oil I use is on the GF-5/API SN Plus which seems like as high has can be officially certed right now while still supporting my desire to be cheap at about $16/5 quarts. It's what I've been using for a while. It goes in yellow... comes out black... and everything I use it on has yet to explode. I'll just have to see if they bump it to GF-6 or I need to go to something else.​

LSPI was more an issue around 2011-2015 when downsized turbocharged GDI engines were starting to become more into the mainstream. The early GM Ecotec and Ford Ecoboost engines were prone to this (as well as VW and Audi), and heavy research has been conducted on the causes and preventing it. There are now millions of these downsized GDI engines on the road, I have not seen any recent cases of this occurring, if this was a huge issue today it would widespread. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I think at this point it is nothing we need to worry about

BTW this is one of the reasons automakers want to make 95 octane standard, so they can make higher compression and downsize engines even more, with the same output but better fuel economy

 

[charleswrivers]

LSPI was more an issue around 2011-2015 when downsized turbocharged GDI engines were starting to become more into the mainstream. The early GM Ecotec and Ford Ecoboost engines were prone to this (as well as VW and Audi), and heavy research has been conducted on the causes and preventing it. There are now millions of these downsized GDI engines on the road, I have not seen any recent cases of this occurring, if this was a huge issue today it would widespread. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I think at this point it is nothing we need to worry about

Yeah... from what I read... the issue with the oil/fuel/soot mix spontaneously combusting and causing damage was said to be largely eliminated through the soon-to-be-out GF-6 oils... which SN Plus was an interim provision until it came out that also helped address it. If earlier GDI turbo engines that have been prone to LSPI have had the modern oil variants shown to be effective in preventing LSPI... other than accepting the new standard as it comes out and not building boost at low RPMs... I think I'm doing my part.

There's probably an equal chance of being one of the 40,000 annual car accident fatalities/year in the US... so... yeah... there's that too. I'm not going too afraid to drive too/from work everyday. Mitigate risk as you can and keep on living.

I will be interested if seeing if the cause of the different GF standard for 0w-16 is because of it's ease of atomization due to low viscosity and low flashpoint... especially when diluted. That's my guess... but it's just what makes sense and may be something totally different.

 

[amirza786]

Yeah... from what I read... the issue with the oil/fuel/soot mix spontaneously combusting and causing damage was said to be largely eliminated through the soon-to-be-out GF-6 oils... which SN Plus was an interim provision until it came out that also helped address it. If earlier GDI turbo engines that have been prone to LSPI have had the modern oil variants shown to be effective in preventing LSPI... other than accepting the new standard as it comes out and not building boost at low RPMs... I think I'm doing my part.

There's probably an equal chance of being one of the 40,000 annual car accident fatalities/year in the US... so... yeah... there's that too. I'm not going too afraid to drive too/from work everyday. Mitigate risk as you can and keep on living.

I will be interested if seeing if the cause of the different GF standard for 0w-16 is because of it's ease of atomization due to low viscosity and low flashpoint... especially when diluted. That's my guess... but it's just what makes sense and may be something totally different.

There is also the Dexos1 Gen2 that is a specification from GM, which was designed to prevent LSPI. The current oil I use (Idemitsu Zepro 0W20) meets that spec

 

[charleswrivers]

There is also the Dexos1 Gen2 that is a specification from GM, which was designed to prevent LSPI. The current oil I use (Idemitsu Zepro 0W20) meets that spec

Yep... looked and the stuff I use apparently does too. I don't know if pretty much anything sold eventually meets all these wickets... and then it's haggling over whether an oil is a mineral oil with synthetic additives or not or whatever. At that point... my eyes glaze over.

(DING DING) And that, my friends... it how you turn a engine-blow-up-thread into an oil thread.

 

[amirza786]

Yep... looked and the stuff I use apparently does too. I don't know if pretty much anything sold eventually meets all these wickets... and then it's haggling over whether an oil is a mineral oil with synthetic additives or not or whatever. At that point... my eyes glaze over.

(DING DING) And that, my friends... it how you turn a engine-blow-up-thread into an oil thread.

It actually turned into an LSPI thread and evolved into an oil thread! BTW Synthetic oils are actually mineral oil where the molecules have been changed. Simplistic answer without getting too technical

 

[gtman]

Just to make a u turn here. So the OP said there was never anything abusive that was done to his car. He didn't mention maintenance but let's say everything was done the right way. No datalogging but let's say he did logs and things looked perfect. And they were done after the dyno runs...

Then one day he's piddling along in traffic and at 2800, the engine blows. Is it possible, very possible that the issue had absolutely nothing to do with the tune? I think that's what a lot of us want to know.

And ultimately the reasons we will probably never know are many. While most of us are willing to take the OP at his word, we aren't 100% sure. We don't know if installation of the aftermarket bolt ons was done properly or if fuel trims were where they needed to be.

About the only scenario that may give us some definitive closure here is Honda saying they found a defect in one of the factory components that lead to the rod failure. If that was the case, that would open up a whole different can of worms.

I think there will be enough doubt here that most of us will chalk this blown engine to *unknown* and get back to driving and enjoying our tuned cars.

 

[mikey003]

Just to make a u turn here. So the OP said there was never anything abusive that was done to his car. He didn't mention maintenance but let's say everything was done the right way. No datalogging but let's say he did logs and things looked perfect. And they were done after the dyno runs...

Then one day he's piddling along in traffic and at 2800, the engine blows. Is it possible, very possible that the issue had absolutely nothing to do with the tune? I think that's what a lot of us want to know.

stock honda engines don't all of a sudden explode

thinking this had nothing to do with the tune is just.....wishful thinking

don't mess around with your cars, service them per honda spec, use OEM products/fluids, and you won't have any problems, your car might out live you

people having issues with their hondas bring their problems on themselves

 

[amirza786]

Just to make a u turn here. So the OP said there was never anything abusive that was done to his car. He didn't mention maintenance but let's say everything was done the right way. No datalogging but let's say he did logs and things looked perfect. And they were done after the dyno runs...

Then one day he's piddling along in traffic and at 2800, the engine blows. Is it possible, very possible that the issue had absolutely nothing to do with the tune? I think that's what a lot of us want to know.

And ultimately the reasons we will probably never know are many. While most of us are willing to take the OP at his word, we aren't 100% sure. We don't know if installation of the aftermarket bolt ons was done properly or if fuel trims were where they needed to be.

About the only scenario that may give us some definitive closure here is Honda saying they found a defect in one of the factory components that lead to the rod failure. If that was the case, that would open up a whole different can of worms.

I think there will be enough doubt here that most of us will chalk this blown engine to *unknown* and get back to driving and enjoying our tuned cars.

As far as I am concerned, this "unknown" at this point doesn't affect me, I have no add-ons except exhaust and an Intercooler, and the TSP Stage 1 tune in which I only use Map 1 and 2 (only used Map 3 once), and have never been on a Dyno. There has been no changes in my cars behavior that I have noticed, oil analysis has a clean bill of health. I just bought a 7" Android tablet with Bluetooth, I will be installing Tuneview on it and will do some monitoring just to be sure nothing is off or out of the ordinary

 

[gtman]

stock honda engines don't all of a sudden explode

thinking this had nothing to do with the tune is just.....wishful thinking

don't mess around with your cars, service them per honda spec, use OEM products/fluids, and you won't have any problems, your car might out live you

people having issues with their hondas bring their problems on themselves

Yes sir. I understand sir. Tunes are done by greedy folks who could care less if they damage your engine. You've mentioned this several times.

I understand I'm stressing things more with my tune. However, it's the faith I have in Hondas dedication to over-engineering their engines and the confidence I have in the tuners that has allowed me to feel comfortable in my decision to tune.

I also run a more or less stock setup which I feel is the safest way to run the off the shelf tunes.

 

[mikey003]

Yes sir. I understand sir. Tunes are done by greedy folks who could care less if they damage your engine. You've mentioned this several times.

well its the truth,

even though it was the owners decision to use the product, that "company" just blew up this guys engine,

so what are they going to do about it?

nothing,

they are going to say, don't blame us, not our fault, its your problem buddy,

do you call that caring about their customers??

i don't

i cant believe people risk their engine for something like this, they either have lots of money to replace their engine, or they lack brainpower, or a combination of both

 

[gtman]

well its the truth,

even though it was the owners decision to use the product, that "company" just blew up this guys engine,

so what are they going to do about it?

nothing,

they are going to say, don't blame us, not our fault, its your problem buddy,

do you call that caring about their customers??

i don't

i cant believe people risk their engine for something like this, they either have lots of money to replace their engine, or they lack brainpower, or a combination of both

Yep. You are right. We lack brainpower. Good call.

I know you're new here but calling out the Gen X tuners like JR, Doug and D-Rob is beyond unfair.

 

[mikey003]

Yep. You are right. We lack brainpower. Good call.

I know you're new here but calling out the Gen X tuners like JR, Doug and D-Rob is beyond unfair.

it is not unfair at all,

they are selling a product that is destroying peoples cars,

 

[Jes_si562]

Idk I'm guessing it's the way you treat your car I stay on map 3 all the time I do pulls often but when I do I make sure the car is over 3krpm when I go WOT also I have bolt ons and I'm using Cali crap 91 octon my fuel trims are high sometimes and when I go balls out my k.control has seen .83 and yet my motor hasn't blown "knock on wood" I also let my car warm up in the morning and do my oil change at 3,5k I'm guessing it all on how you put the load on the rods

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