Did Something Blow Up?!

dallasjhawk

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I can second this as my new motor didn’t end up being covered under warranty. The dealership sucked up the cost (about $12k which they should have) and also put the stone chip film across the entire car and detailed the car for the disservice.
That dealer would have my business for life, seriously.
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I was fixed operations manager for a Kia dealer and I can tell you that when I had a customer come in with a major issue that may be just out of warranty and I had to call my district rep for help, the first thing that he would ask me is "Are they good customers? Do they do their regular services with you? Do they have their service records?" If the customer was a regular and did what was required in terms of owner obligations for their vehicle it made it a lot easier to get the support that I asked for as opposed to someone that serviced their vehicle outside of the brand. You have to understand that when you request for dealer help when you request for help outside of your regular warranty coverage that the dealer will be using funds from their Goodwill Budget that's reserved for good customers that require special help. Also remember that Goodwill extension is used at the dealers discretion - not everyone will get it. The same goes for loaner car provision, there's nothing written in stone saying that dealers MUST provide a loaner car, it's a courtesy extended by the dealer. The fact that the OP got a nice ride as a loaner and they took care of him quickly is fantastic.
 

ebhaynz

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Thats not true, there are multiple stories of dealers helping people out. You just never hear about it because the angry people scream loudly and the satisfied people just move on with their lives.
The car dealer experience is rated as the worst customer service in the U.S. for good reason.
 

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The car dealer experience is rated as the worst customer service in the U.S. for good reason.
I think I've been helped out (around $50 worth) ONCE by a dealer, and been screwed over (or had an attempted screw-over) at least 8-10 times.
 

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I think I've been helped out (around $50 worth) ONCE by a dealer, and been screwed over (or had an attempted screw-over) at least 8-10 times.
I'll never forget my first ever car buying experience at a dealer. I drove by one day in Oct 88 and noticed they had dropped the price of the car I wanted by $1,500 so I agreed to buy it. I came back with the check and the manager actually came into the room and said he needed another $50 for whatever reason, it definitely wasn't valid. He was really serious about it, which was kind of hard to understand in comparison to the nearly $12,000 I was paying for the car. Above all else instead of this being a painless, friendly customer experience it turned dark, greedy, and sleazy by this one man coming in and pissing on the post toasties. I'm not kidding, he was a real jerk about it. He wouldn't take a check either, it had to be a cashiers check which I had to leave, go get it, come back and added another hour or two to the ordeal. all for fifty bucks.
 


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Another and most likely final update!

Last week my car began to knock and overheat so I brought it back to the dealership.

Apparently according to the service manager, Honda dealerships need to get approval from Honda Canada to do major engine work on “significant vehicles such as the Si”. That includes removing the head, inspecting camshafts, removing and opening up the block etc etc.
They ripped apart my motor and found multiple bearings throughout to be destroyed. Every bearing that wasn’t destroyed was discoloured. All rods were discoloured, 2 piston rings with extreme wear, the combustion chamber walls and pistons were discoloured, the intake shaft was scored with multiple fractures, pieces of metal in the oil and the oil being a litre full of oil.

All in all the decision was made to replace the motor! They also inspected the turbo and the turbo was in “excellent condition”. Honda Canada also had requested the oil in my motor be sent to them to be analyzed. I was told the oil analysis was to determine why the excess amount of fuel since i had the recall done.

The dealership also gave me a 2018 Accord Touring with the 2.0 turbo and I have to say the Si is soooooo much better.
Just to clarify it was mostly at the cause of having no oil in the motor when i lost the drain bolt. The fuel dilution i think just made it 10 times worse.
From experience, I can say that dilution probably wasn't a factor here. Loss of oil, even for a moment, increases wear exponentially over any other condition. But I'm glad the dealer stepped up and replaced your motor (as they should).


A more technical explanation:

I'm 99.99% certain that your "dilution" issue was the result of oil passing through severely worn/cracked rings, stemming from the low oil level. The space between the lower rings, ringlands and cylinder walls was probably a cavern compared to other 1.5Ts. And that is how the oil mixed with elements in the combustion chamber - including fuel - at an infinitely higher rate (despite holding compression prior to full failure).

If you asked your dealer, I'm willing to bet that Honda Canada also asked for the oil filter. And they weren't looking specifically for dilution. They were looking at the type of metals in your oil & the filter element, and where they originated.

I believe @charleswrivers and @Snoopyslr have some experience in this area, and might be able to add more commentary. Hope that helps clear things up. :cool:


EDIT: Clarified a couple points.
 
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charleswrivers

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From experience, I can say that probably wasn't the case here. Loss of oil, even for a moment, increases wear exponentially over any other condition. But I'm glad the dealer stepped up and replaced your motor (as they should).


A more technical explanation:

I'm 99.99% certain that your "dilution" issue was the result of oil passing through severely worn/cracked rings, stemming from the low oil level. The space between the lower rings, ringlands and cylinder walls was probably a cavern compared to other 1.5Ts. And that is how the oil mixed with elements in the combustion chamber - including fuel - at an infinitely higher rate (despite holding compression prior to full failure).

If you asked your dealer, I'm willing to bet that AHM also asked for the oil filter. And they weren't looking specifically for dilution. They were looking at the type of metals in your oil & the filter element, and where they originated.

I believe @charleswrivers has experience in this area too. And might be able to add more commentary. Hope that helps clear things up. :cool:
Not this in particular. I've rebuilt the top of a small engine recently that was smoking that turned out the rings had aligned such that they were perfectly inline to make oil blow by. It happens but is *super* rare. I've rebuilt (pistons/rings) one 2 small engines and did honing and valve seats on another and lots of carb work and jetting... but other than swapping heads, I've never dug deeper into a large (not single cylinder) engine.

I have read that between the coatings on the cylinder walls and the rings being.. looser (that's not the word I want to use but it's the one that comes to mind) against the cylinder, it provides less resistance for movement in the chambers. This has a drawback of allowing more fuel to pass by when cold especially because expansion hasn't happened yet and the high pressure fuel compared to port injection makes a touch more fuel blow by. Without oil though... those rings would scrub off any cylinder coating, wear away rapidly and the bearings would settle as their wedges go away. No metal is really supposed to touch... once it does, it goes away quickly.

Maybe you've got someone else @Design. I haven't had any issues first hand (knock on wood) and my rebuild experience has been small engine limited. I do know engines are pretty tough and survive running low oil... but run it without oil... especially if it gets shutdown then started again so what oil wedge may have been left for your bearings to ride gets pushed out when the bearing settles slightly when it stops is pretty much disaster. A lot of my run without oil info is more on big reduction gears for boats... and I'm a nuke electrician and not a mechanic so it'd be me watching them work on those with a concerned look on my face... maybe holding a flashlight. ;)

OP... it's great you got a new engine. 12k seems an enormous number (like, nearly 1.5-2x what I think would be realistic).... but so be it if it's not you paying the bill. You can replace a lot of things in a block, but the labor stacks up compared to just swapping blocks. I don't know if the L15B7 has done sort of sleeves or they'd bore what there but I'm 99% sure (correct me if I'm wrong) our cylinders have some sort of fancy low-resistance coating that boring would eliminate.

Off topic... I wonder how much wall exists to bore it out to, say, a 1.6? There's a lot of flavors of L-engine... most NA, a few with VTEC but none I know of bigger than a 1.5.

So far as fuel dilution exacerbating an issue... no. Drain plug comes out and all your oil drains out... I'd rather have gasoline on a surface than nothing at that point... :hmm: but yeah, I'm surprise fuel dilution had a dog in the blown engine from no oil fight.
 
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dallasjhawk

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Not this in particular. I've rebuilt the top of a small engine recently that was smoking that turned out the rings had aligned such that they were perfectly inline to make oil blow by. It happens but is *super* rare. I've rebuilt (pistons/rings) one 2 small engines and did honing and valve seats on another and lots of carb work and jetting... but other than swapping heads, I've never dug deeper into a large (not single cylinder) engine.

I have read that between the coatings on the cylinder walls and the rings being.. looser (that's not the word I want to use but it's the one that comes to mind) against the cylinder, it provides less resistance for movement in the chambers. This has a drawback of allowing more fuel to pass by when cold especially because expansion hasn't happened yet and the high pressure fuel compared to port injection makes a touch more fuel blow by. Without oil though... those rings would scrub off any cylinder coating, wear away rapidly and the bearings would settle as their wedges go away. No metal is really supposed to touch... once it does, it goes away quickly.

Maybe you've got someone else @Design. I haven't had any issues first hand (knock on wood) and my rebuild experience has been small engine limited. I do know engines are pretty tough and survive running low oil... but run it without oil... especially if it gets shutdown then started again so what oil wedge may have been left for your bearings to ride gets pushed out when the bearing settles slightly when it stops is pretty much disaster. A lot of my run without oil info is more on big reduction gears for boats... and I'm a nuke electrician and not a mechanic so it'd be me watching them work on those with a concerned look on my face... maybe holding a flashlight. ;)

OP... it's great you got a new engine. 12k seems an enormous number (like, nearly 1.5-2x what I think would be realistic).... but so be it if it's not you paying the bill. You can replace a lot of things in a block, but the labor stacks up compared to just swapping blocks. I don't know if the L15B7 has done sort of sleeves or they'd bore what there but I'm 99% sure (correct me if I'm wrong) our cylinders have some sort of fancy low-resistance coating that boring would eliminate.

Off topic... I wonder how much wall exists to bore it out to, say, a 1.6? There's a lot of flavors of L-engine... most NA, a few with VTEC but none I know of bigger than a 1.5.
I'm Pretty sure a long block is $6500-$7000 New from honda with labor, add in the turbo and the things that go with it from oil starvation and you get to almost $9k. He is Canada so add that and you may have $12k.
 

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I'm Pretty sure a long block is $6500-$7000 New from honda with labor, add in the turbo and the things that go with it from oil starvation and you get to almost $9k. He is Canada so add that and you may have $12k.
Oh Canada!

Nope you're spot on based on the loon. I was thinking ~5k plus 2k-3k labor US prices. I figured if you tried to do a rebuild, labor would explode. What does Honda charge... 125... 150 USD/hour? That and it might turn into a science experiment.

A independent might do a reman for 1/2 that a little less labor. I've had an interference engine rebuild after a timing belt break about 20 years ago for $1500... though that just amounted to a reman head and then doing the 60k maintenance effectively.

Honestly, it's been a long time since I paid big money for car work. I put... er.. $15k in my Z over several years ~5 years ago... (It hurt my head adding it up in my head). I may not be that up on the current costs. I know a few years back a reman engine with a warranty was like 2500-3500... though I didn't need it.
 

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Oh Canada!

Nope you're spot on based on the loon. I was thinking ~5k plus 2k-3k labor US prices. I figured if you tried to do a rebuild, labor would explode. What does Honda charge... 125... 150 USD/hour? That and it might turn into a science experiment.

A independent might do a reman for 1/2 that a little less labor. I've had an interference engine rebuild after a timing belt break about 20 years ago for $1500... though that just amounted to a reman head and then doing the 60k maintenance effectively.

Honestly, it's been a long time since I paid big money for car work. I put... er.. $15k in my Z over several years ~5 years ago... (It hurt my head adding it up in my head). I may not be that up on the current costs. I know a few years back a reman engine with a warranty was like 2500-3500... though I didn't need it.
Why remaufacture, when you ca pick up a "REAR END" totaled car for far less, with an engine with only a few 1000 miles, and lots of other spare parts as well.
Labor is going to be the killer, unless it's something you can do yourself, or you have a good mechanic friend.
 


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Why remaufacture, when you ca pick up a "REAR END" totaled car for far less, with an engine with only a few 1000 miles, and lots of other spare parts as well.
Labor is going to be the killer, unless it's something you can do yourself, or you have a good mechanic friend.
Totally right, but a lot of places won't install an engine out of a junker... just like they won't install parts provided by the owner. There's no basis to warranty the work.

Bet your ass if I blow my engine in a car I own, I'm hunting down a Si or CRV in a junkyard and bringing the engine home. I think it'd be a lot of fun (so far as fixing thing goes) and about 1000% better/easier than messing with the Z's old VG30dett. When I look at the little L15B7 all I see is room to work. That and having friends that have done it many times over (buddy of mine just put a cheap not-quite-LS V8 from a junked truck in a older RX7 this passed year) and access to the auto hobby shop on base... it'd be easy work I bet through a whole week, weekend to weekend.

Getting a used engine for hundreds of dollars and doing your own wrench work would always be the best way to go. I still haven't seen 10th gens really hitting the junkyards though. I just checked Jacksonville, FL and it still looked like there was none.

One big downfall to owning a current-model car. My Caddy was over a decade old when I had it. RSX the same by the tune I traded. All 5 of my Z's the same as I had then over the years. This is the first time I think I've ever had 2 newer (not a decade old or older) cars at the same time.
 

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Totally right, but a lot of places won't install an engine out of a junker... just like they won't install parts provided by the owner. There's no basis to warranty the work.

Bet your ass if I blow my engine in a car I own, I'm hunting down a Si or CRV in a junkyard and bringing the engine home. I think it'd be a lot of fun (so far as fixing thing goes) and about 1000% better/easier than messing with the Z's old VG30dett. When I look at the little L15B7 all I see is room to work. That and having friends that have done it many times over (buddy of mine just put a cheap not-quite-LS V8 from a junked truck in a older RX7 this passed year) and access to the auto hobby shop on base... it'd be easy work I bet through a whole week, weekend to weekend.

Getting a used engine for hundreds of dollars and doing your own wrench work would always be the best way to go. I still haven't seen 10th gens really hitting the junkyards though. I just checked Jacksonville, FL and it still looked like there was none.

One big downfall to owning a current-model car. My Caddy was over a decade old when I had it. RSX the same by the tune I traded. All 5 of my Z's the same as I had then over the years. This is the first time I think I've ever had 2 newer (not a decade old or older) cars at the same time.
Unfortunately for the owners (and fortunately for the parts hunter), there appear to be quite a large number of 2017/2018 civics being totaled in the USA, often with quite low mileage. (Deduce what you want from that !!)
The difficulty is, locating them, and then being able to purchase the, and transport them, especially if you are not a licensed auto shop/dealer.

ie
https://iaai-tools.com/show/SHHFK7H55JU?page=1
The head unit I recently purchased on Ebay come form a totaled 2018 SI Coupe.
(Using the XM-Radio code, I was able to track down the Vin#, and it was auctioned on the above auction and listed on their website.)




Trying to find a used 1987 Nissan Maxima Wagon for parts is far more of a challenge !! (Took me almost a year in 2018 to find one that was not totally rusted out)
Same year and Model - slightly different paint .. Parts car is on the left.( had been left unused in owners garage for 15 years !!)




Honda Civic 10th gen Did Something Blow Up?! 20180907_163246

Honda Civic 10th gen Did Something Blow Up?! 8-15-2018 phone 025.JPG


The "Not so good" side of the Parts car ... :( (Luckily the previous owner was not hurt , but car was way beyond ecconomic repair -- even if one could get the parts)
 
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I'm Pretty sure a long block is $6500-$7000 New from honda with labor, add in the turbo and the things that go with it from oil starvation and you get to almost $9k. He is Canada so add that and you may have $12k.
Keep in mind Honda Canada also had them remove and inspect all the parts in the failed motor as well remove and inspect the turbo. My guess is the labour from that is probably the difference maker since it wasn’t just a “out with the old, in with the new” process
 

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Keep in mind Honda Canada also had them remove and inspect all the parts in the failed motor as well remove and inspect the turbo. My guess is the labour from that is probably the difference maker since it wasn’t just a “out with the old, in with the new” process
There's some confusion here that I'd like to clarify. The engine isn't being replaced by Honda warranty as it was damaged due to negligence of the mechanic that worked on the car. Honda Canada isn't going to pay for the parts or labour replacement. The dealer is footing the bill 100% and claiming it under their corporate insurance. How do I know? I had a tech at a dealership where I worked do the same thing on a vehicle and it was a $15,000 claim that the company made to replace the engine. So cost of the engine, associated parts and fluids, plus about 10hrs of labor to replace and remove the engine. Now regarding the used engine route, if the dealer said "Mr customer we screwed your engine up but we are going to put a used engine in to replace it" do you think the OP would be fine with that? I sure as hell wouldn't be.

Honda won't be inspecting anything as part of this whole ordeal.
 
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There's some confusion here that I'd like to clarify. The engine isn't being replaced by Honda warranty as it was damaged due to negligence of the mechanic that worked on the car. Honda Canada isn't going to pay for the parts or labour replacement. The dealer is footing the bill 100% and claiming it under their corporate insurance. How do I know? I had a tech at a dealership where I worked do the same thing on a vehicle and it was a $15,000 claim that the company made to replace the engine. So cost of the engine, associated parts and fluids, plus about 10hrs of labor to replace and remove the engine. Now regarding the used engine route, if the dealer said "Mr customer we screwed your engine up but we are going to put a used engine in to replace it" do you think the OP would be fine with that? I sure as hell wouldn't be.

Honda won't be inspecting anything as part of this whole ordeal.
You are right all the way up to the used engine part. I’m not sure where that used engine came from lol. The engine is new. Originally the dealership presented it like a warranty claim and then Honda Canada discovered afterwards that it was due to negligence of the mechanic so the dealership had to take 100% of the cost.
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