D-Street Type R AutoX info sharing

apexit53

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Not sure how useful that is for sound clip. We used the region sound equipment it is about 90dB from the mandated distance away.

It drones real bad on the street between 55-62. Not as bad at 70-72.

We have some interesting data from the weekend but I need some time to digest it...

I DD mine, no way I could live with that! Must mean I am getting old... lol
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RacingManiac

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I am 36, and I also DD mine....its pretty bad, my tolerance for terrible thing is pretty high though...
 

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destoups

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I'm old and almost deaf in one ear. I've found straight pipes and resonator on most of my cars (Cobalt, S2K, Si, FR-S, Camaro, etc) pass along just enough feedback to be useful without overwhelming. Hope if it's truly that loud you wear some protection.
 

RacingManiac

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So outside of the loud exhaust we ran the new 19" Rival S, in 275/35/19 sizes all around. Me and my codriver Ken Tsang both drove the car. Since we also just installed the Karcepts bar we also spent time dialing the car in with the bar with the tires. Pressure was mostly left alone at our normal pressure we ran before on BFGs on the GTI(35psi all around). Site is Oscoda(concrete, old, and bumpy in spot, I feel it normally feels kinda similar to Lincoln) with temperature started around low 70s and near the end of our running its probably in mid-low 60s(we left before it started raining). The BFGs are brand new aside from maybe 200 miles of street driving. Car started at around indicated slightly above half tank of gas

T&T course had a lot of transitional element(as shown in the video) with decent size sweepers. Probably a bit too complex for T&T purpose but it was pretty fun.

Started the car on full soft setting as it is the closest to our stock bar setting prior to the change. Car is drivable, no tendency to break the rear loose like the staggered Bridgestone. Time started around mid-low 47sec Prior to our start we were told of some other times. There was a BS GT350 running into low 46s(we only went on the 3rd day of the 3 days T&T).

Once we feel we are comfortable with the course we went to middle bar setting(hole 3 of 5). Noted immediate balance shift in that the car has slightly more tendency to rotate under hard braking. Seems to be able carry more throttle in the wallom section of the course. The car is still not as twitchy as it was with staggered Bridgestones, Ken dipped into mid 46s. We do notice as the tire gets hot the car pick up more understeer in both transition and also steadystate, which it seems to turn into a sweeper fine it doesn't seem to want to carry a line very easily(conjecture here is the car might be trying to yaw the car with grabbing inside brake, which makes the car turn but the tire then can't cash the yaw rate produced into lateral grip). We had to stop at this point as we are on our work shift. After we returned we ran the same setting but with obviously cooled tires and immediately picked up time to low 46s for Ken and mid 46s for me. Which established we would be trying to spray these more and keep a slower cadence to keep the tires not as hot. Went to full stiff and time didn't seem to improve while the car is freer it also seem to be a bit more twichy, still not nearly as much as stagger tire Bridgestone setup is.

To bracket the work we went back to full soft. The car is noted to be harder to drive and we went maybe .3-.5 sec slower for both of us. Other effect noted was we got noticeable inside front wheel spin on power exiting the slower of the sweeper into the 3 cone slalom(where the car bangs into revlimiter). Makes sense considering the physics involved. With the car at full soft we switched to the Bridgestones. These are the same tires we ran the car with since after the last Toledo event last year, 2017-ish vintage 275/35/19 for the front, and 2018 245s in the rear.. We have flipped the fronts this year after the Toledo event last week. They have notable shoulder wear for the 275s. The rears are still mostly fresh. These are running on the Motegis(the BFGs were on the NSX wheels).

We took a total of 4 runs on the Bridgestones(2 for me, 2 for Ken). on his 2nd run Ken ran a 45.6. And I ran my best time of for a 46.1 on my 2nd run(almost spun into the wallom on the first run though, and 2nd run basically countersteered through 2 sets of walls too, data says at that point its actually .4 slower). This is with the bar at full soft and 32psi all around(normal Bridgestone pressure for us, though in hindsight we probably should go to lower rear pressure like we've been doing for the earlier events). The car is way more edgier to drive with the way its setup but there are very notable difference in how the car reacts under braking, it seems to retard more speed with less pedal input and seems easier to modulate under braking also.. The way it can be placed around a sweeper is much more precise. When looking at Solostorm data later(only phone + Qstar), the time difference seems to just be cumulative all around the course, overall G-G plot seems ever so slightly bigger on the Bridgestones. The peak braking G for Ken is higher and still translated to more lat, for me I actually braked less and rolled in more speed. Regardless the tires just seem to take more than the Rivals. The real issue is cold tire first run even on full soft is kinda tricky to drive.

So after lunch we went back on the best setup on the Rivals before lunch(hole 3, and rotated fronts to rears) and took more runs to see if we can get some of the difference back. I took 2 runs and matched my best time before lunch on Rivals thats still half a sec off. And Ken took 4 runs, spraying in between and got no more than a tenth closer(actually 4 runs are within a tenth of a sec). So in the end we have about .5 sec on a course we got pretty familiar with between a set of used Bridgestones that is on a slightly uncomfortable(but fast) setup vs a easier to drive in some sense but slower setup.

Now we are trying to decide if we want to get a set of Bridgestones, but in 265 square fitment. We will go to Bristol on the Rivals for sure though.......I will tell you I did not see this result coming, and we were pretty shocked how easily it came on the Bridgestones. On the GTI we did similar test before and never found a huge difference on time but Rival S just made the sloppy car easier to drive as it tolerates the sloppiness more.

On the note of fuel level. We ran until the light came on. The car didn't sputter at all, Ken set his fastest Rival runs on the light.

So like I said before it was pretty interesting results to me. Also probably expensive results since I will need to buy more tires it seems....
 


burglar

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Did you try higher rear pressures on the BFG to try and get a little more neutral setup on those? Do you think a little more slip angle out of the rear would equal more overall lateral G? I like the sharp feel of the RE-71 especially on a Street class car, but I also like the tolerance of jackassery of the Rival.

My hypothesis is that the RE prefers a slightly tighter car for neat and tidy work (square setup would help,) the Rival prefers a more loosey goosey setup so you can take advantage of the tire's tolerance of moving around a bit.
 

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The theory is fine until you've seen how stupid of slides I can get into on the skinny Bridgestones out back and ran faster time than Rivals.

I think there are some fine tuning you can do with pressure still, but we played with rear bar enough to get the back end loose that its not really the issue. It doesn't have the kind of adjustability or response out of the REs. Which while is the same general impression on GTI it seems to matter more on this car...
 


destoups

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@RacingManiac , appreciate all the detail. I've not driven Rivals much. Curious as to what problem you want solved most? @burglar's guess about bringing the crazy make sense with what I know of them.
 

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I don't know if its necessarily a solvable problem as I think it might just be a behavior of the tire and how it relates to the car's characteristics. In theory there are a lot of similarity between what a GTI is compare to a Type R. Both are FWD cars on strut suspension and probably uses the front tires primarily and weighs in the same ballpark. In practice the size of the tires on the Type R are much bigger relative to the GTI, while still being similarly loaded because of the weight, so maybe on GTI where you might be stepping over the bound where RE71Rs might fall off on a GTI and where the more easy going nature of the Rival can be exploited, the Type R might just be gentler on the tires and you are still with in the bound of where REs operates. This is also on concrete though, on asphalt like Bristol maybe you might actually want the less spiky handling car...
 

burglar

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Just brainstorming here, do you think it is a possibility the BFG played nicer with the more sensitive German stability systems? Seemed the like GTI worked best when it was underdriven, where the CTR is a car that allows you to rip it.
 

RacingManiac

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Maybe, though I don't think that car being fast or slow had anything to do with ESC doing anything unwanted, if it was going to do it it would do it with either tires.
 

lasoundguy

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I might have missed it in this thread has anyone figured out which exhausts play nice with the Karcepts bar? I want something louder as I can't really hear the exhaust with my helmet on (stock), but not that crazy straight pipe thing @RacingManiac is going on about.

Also I am declaring my RE-71Rs dead after 97 runs and one track day at Willow Springs. Flipped on the rim after 80 runs, which let them get through the track day.
38 runs in:
Honda Civic 10th gen D-Street Type R AutoX info sharing 5-WFKnWhGQbjaj-tXkDChGs7oHYOvQjPd3U2_EQ1za-aE63NtVqTtclasBftjAE8P27IJu8edybk1hgQ6=w1413-h1883-no


97 runs + trackday:
Honda Civic 10th gen D-Street Type R AutoX info sharing GJ_Mpci4KNz3V4JDG09GgWWyvjf6wfqrPl-oxwBbahdrt3tyaBP2BrUDrToDJN8lyuSa6MoUw6k0ZdM7u=w1440-h1080-no
 


 


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