Civic SI vs 86/FRS/BRZ again..

  1. Crovax

    Crovax Member

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    Hello all,

    I am off to buy a "new" used car and I am currently looking at a Civic Si or a Scion FRS (both 2016ish).
    I know this topic has been covered before but I am asking more specific questions.

    I was actually leaning heavily towards the Civic given it's driveability, creature comforts, reliability and turbo power.

    I also like the FF layout given that all of my road racing (autox/rallyx 10 years ago) had been done solely on the FF layout.

    But now I'm hearing about the electronic handbrake and the lack of ability to do left foot braking on these vehicles. I did discover another thread where an individual claimed the pedal dance would remove the Brake Override System. Can anyone confirm on that? (https://www.civicx.com/threads/left-foot-braking.42572/)

    I am going to be road testing these vehicles soon but I don't think they would appreciate me doing the pedal dance and attempting to see whether that allows left foot braking.

    Did any of these factors make you lean towards the 86/FRS/BRZ?
     
  2. jakdotdot

    jakdotdot Senior Member

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    AFAIK you can left foot brake if you petal dance.

    IIRC there are long threads on this subject over on ft86club.
     
  3. jred721

    jred721 Senior Member

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    #3 jred721, Nov 19, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    Honestly it depends what you're using it for. Is it going to be your daily driver and also so run some autox? Do you need the practicality of 4 doors? How much money do you plan on putting into the car for mods? All of those questions would factor into my decision IMO. Here's the breakdown though, the Civic Si will more easily and readily make power over the FRS/BRZ due to coming turbocharged from factory, so just a simple tune and some bolt ons will have you making a substantial amount of power over the FRS/BRZ. Combine that with the better interior and creature comforts, and you have a car that's both a good daily driver and something than can run an Autox course with relative ease and fun factor. And even if you're planning the car stock, Civics 1.5 turbo still has an edge over the n/a boxer in the FRS.

    However, BRZ/FRS does have a manual/RWD layout which is something that offers a completely different driving experience compared to the Si. If you're primarily going to be tracking this thing, FRS would probably be my starting point. The aftermarket for those cars is huge, and they offer everything from turbo/supercharger kits to a bunch of different kinds of suspension upgrades. So if i'm focusing primarily on a track setup, FRS is one of the best places to start, it's like a blank canvas. But if you're gonna be daily driving the thing as well, Civic is probably a better car for the job IMO.
     
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  4. Maroco

    Maroco Senior Member

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    You can left foot brake. You just have to disable traction control completely (not hard just a few pushes of pedals while stationery).

    Fwd vs rwd. Two different animals. Your test drive should let you know pretty quickly what you want. I suggest the Si. The brz is to small imo if its your daily.
     
  5. OP
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    Crovax

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    I did test drive the FRS a couple days ago. Quite a fun car but I understand it being small. I am coming from a 2007 Yaris so the size/lack of interior finesse isn't bothering me yet and I am short at 5'5.

    It's good to know the Civic can LFB with the pedal dance.

    For both cars, the only mods might be tires/rims. And that pedal extender for the Civic SI so it is easier to heel/toe.

    Yes, I am looking to do only the occasional autox.

    Right now, I am leaning towards the FRS as I found a formerly leased one for 20K (CDN) and the civic SI (coupe) I am looking at is 23K (CDN).

    The only other problems I am worried about is reliability on the FRS. There are issues regarding throw out bearings, and engine issues on some of the early models that can cost quite a bit. Honda seems to have the reliability down.

    One personal thing for me is that the Civic is noticeably bigger. Having driven subcompacts most of my time, I wonder if this will be an issue? I wish the civics nowadays were more like the EG/EKs way back in the day.

    Thank for your input so far, it is super helpful.
     
  6. Maroco

    Maroco Senior Member

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    Unless that civic is a 2020 si, run. I got my new 2020 otd for not to much more than 23k
     
  7. Maroco

    Maroco Senior Member

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    Just realized you are canadian. Disregard last post lol
     
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  8. 06XTOR

    06XTOR Member

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    Other than the issue that was recalled for both the brz and frs. They have been extremely reliable. Probably more reliable than the civic 1.5 litre motors. Honda's quality is not what It used to be
     
  9. charleswrivers

    charleswrivers Senior Member

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    If you're looking at a BRZ/FRS... I'd just add that I'd cross shop a 370z and a MX5. For a small, tossable 2-seater roaster without too much power... the Miata/MX5 is the yardstick which most others are measured. The 370z has the same powertrain since '09, and has an extra 100 horsepower to boot. While it's very (veryveryvery) long in the tooth... bargains can be had left in right on them that are a few years old.

    Civic vs BRZ/FRS is mainly an exercise in that platform you desire... with the Civic being a very good handling FWD platform that's on the bottom end of 'sporty power' stock with a few tech bells and whistles and plenty of interior room for cargo/passengers. I mainly made the other suggestions because if the RWD platform wins out for you... I think the MX5 is a compelling alternative for the low powered 2 seater NA roaster... and the Z being the alternative for the high powered one. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses and personalities. I've checked out BRZ/FRSs and would not choose them before the Z or the MX5 personally... but my preference doesn't necessarily have anything to do with yours. It's always good to check out all the competition to ensure you're making the best choice for you. Good luck on your search and have fun! :thumbsup:
     
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  10. Friction

    Friction Senior Member

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    Why do you think 17-19 Si's aren't worth buying?
     
  11. Maroco

    Maroco Senior Member

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    The price he quoted was too high for a 17-19. Then i realizes he was canadian and corrected myself in my very next post
     
  12. Friction

    Friction Senior Member

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    Doh, I should have kept reading. My bad. :hide:
     
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  13. racer

    racer Senior Member

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    The Si's low end tq advantage over the BRS makes it the easier car to drive "off boil". The FWD makes it easier in inclement weather. Its also more accommodating, even as a 2dr, for carrying the occasional 3rd / 4th person /dog. More practical overall. More fun? maybe. Only you can decide what you prefer.
     
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  14. OP
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    Crovax

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    #14 Crovax, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
    Wow, so many good responses. Thank you guys.

    I went to test drive the FR-S as I noted before. I'm sure you guys already understand this but man, the dealership is an experience.

    The whole time, this salesman was overly fake friendly but when I asked him if I could get a 3rd party inspection done on the car, he was not happy. His personality did a complete 180, and he started using the "stall" tactic talking to his co-workers and managers over an inspection!

    When I couldn't get a same day appointment with my car mechanic (obviously..), he became desperate and started looking for shops close by that could do it. He was saying things like "wow, you really trust your friend's advice", "we did a 150 point inspection on this, why would you waste your money?", etc.

    I literally told him 8 times... "Don't take this personally, I just want to be sure before I spend this much money". At one point, he asked whether I would be okay taking the car to a Toyota dealership a couple blocks away.

    Funny thing is later, after picking up my keys from the manager, he told me that their technicians were Toyota certified as well having formerly worked at the Toyota dealership a couple blocks away..as if that really means anything to doing good mechanic work but I also realized that these two dealerships have some sort of relationship making this whole inspection thing shadier.

    Anyhow, I am supposed to test drive the SI this coming Monday. If you guys have any tips for bargaining your car trade-in, they would be appreciated as well!

    Thanks for the tips on the 350/370Z and MX-5. I have considered those before but I just like Toyota in general. The 350/370Z probably has way too much power for me to handle and I think I'd stick to autocross over the track.
     
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  15. charleswrivers

    charleswrivers Senior Member

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    Nope... I understand 100%. Admittedly... I lean towards Zs in general (I’m on my 5th one). I’d still encourage you to take one for a test drive in comparison. It may do nothing but further solidify your love for Toyota’s. I always like test driving everything I can get my hands on before I purchase to know I’m picking what suits me best.

    It was a friends FRS I drove several years ago now... maybe back in ‘14? I don’t know but I recall it was shortly after they were released. I liked the car... it was a lot of fun but I thought one of the little BMW roadsters (test drove one, never bought) or MX5s (the one I drove was a loooong time ago and was an early 00s model, so it’s be a bit down on power and luxuries compared to a modern one) were kind of more... special in their own way. The FRS didn’t connect with me. Had it, I’d of probably really liked it. I think the lack of power would have killed it for me. For years I’d hoped they would provide the turbo variant of the engine at ~300 hp for an extra $10k premium and of called it their Supra trim, much like how Supra was a designation of a Celica trim before it split off to its own car.

    Well, they brought back the Supra as it’s own thing and I doubt the now-86 will ever see big power on a bargain. Still... one can dream. Mazda made their MazdaSpeed Miata/MX5 only a couple years and the panned Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky still had a potent engine with that Ecotec 2.0 turbo. I wanted to like the Pontiac Solstice Redline I messed with but the interior so so god awful and awkward I couldn’t. I even liked how they looked from the outside. Oh well. Anyways... to the point, the selection of smallish but still kind of powerful cars FRS/BRZ is slim. I felt like it’s 200 hp was certainly enough, just not enough to make it make me grin in a straight line.

    Whatever you pick, enjoy the journey. Time and vehicle volume is on your side. You’re not looking at an ultra rare car... but a pretty plentiful late model used car. If these folks don’t want to play ball or want to jerk you around, I’d let them keep their car to depreciate on their lot.
     
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