Civic Si in GS

[5inn]

That's clearly not a mistake, I'm trying to be nice about it, but I'm still baffled at how you think he mispoke that.

He specifically says "continuously adaptive".

He explains how there is still a "full range adaptive" of damping force, how changing sport mode changes a minimum damping force value.

The shock chart clearly shows a damping range, not a damping plot.

In that very same thread, we find it's the ZF CDC system.

In Honda's R&D publications, it has a whole article on adaptive damper development.

Very interested to know your impressions on the rear bar. Although I don't plan to compete with the Si, I'm considering for weekend scoots without upsetting the rest of the chassis for daily duty.

I just hope it'll be in. I ordered it a few weeks ago and am still without an ETA. I plan on autocrossing at our local SCCA's Team Challenge event which is mostly just for fun anyway. Unfortunately I'll be on RS4s and not RE71Rs or Rival S 1.5s, but it doesn't seem worth it to buy a set for one event.

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[zroger73]

I believe that despite the use of the words "continuously" and "adaptive" by media outlets and even Honda themselves, the Si's "adaptive" damper system consists of a damper with two paths for fluid to flow. The path that the fluid flows is determined by the position of a valve controlled by a solenoid. If there's no current going to the solenoid, fluid flows through a less-restrictive path. When current is applied to the solenoid, the valve position switches so that the fluid flows through a different path that has more restriction to fluid flow. This is a binary setup - you get either less damping (normal) or more damping (sport).

Remember: Honda themselves initially published in a press release that the Si had a single-mass flywheel, remote start, and rain-sensing wipers - none of which were true. I don't trust everything Honda's Senior Product Planner, Rob Keough, says, either. Media outlets run with this information even when it's incorrect.

Someone with access to the service information needs to read the section entitled "System Description - Adaptive Damper System" for the 2017 Civic Si. This information along with the diagnostic procedure and wiring diagram should settle this discussion.

The white paper on an "Adaptive Damper System without Use of Dedicated Sensors" makes no mention of specific models and the vehicle in the illustration is clearly not a Civic. Even the control logic block diagram is incorrect in that refers to an output connected to a "sensor" which is an input device. A solenoid coil would be an example of an output device.

 

[Design]

The dampers are around $300 each wholesale. I'd be very surprised if they were electronically controlled beyond the bi-mode actuator. Probably a trick valve to sense high and low speed damping, similar to Koni FSD and KW.

Just a hunch until we get more info.

 

[baldheadracing]

As far as I can tell from (just now) looking at the Honda Service material, the Si controller has a (different) stepped output to each shock's solenoid. (The output determines the position of the solenoid, so the flow is not on/off.) There do not appear to be any dedicated sensors - so the white paper behaviour should be indicative.


The Type R has continuously-varying output to the shock solenoids, and has acceleration sensors and suspension stroke sensors.

YMMV, this is my interpretation of the links to Honda info which have been posted here, but I can't find the post at the moment - I can't figure out how to search for "Thanks" that I have given ...

 

[BarracksSi]

After all that, I'd still say that the better choice for heavy all-around modding is a manual LX just because of its simplicity. For out-of-the-box fun, the Si and Type-R are better since they're already so well-sorted from the factory.

A base model coupe with $15k in well-chosen suspension and motor mods would a beast of a car.

 

[5inn]

Pulling the pins on mine this weekend and maybe adjusting toe. Slapping on some 17x8 wheels with 255 40 Rival S 1.5s and co-driving with another forum member who happens to have a Sport Hatch. I was hoping the CTR bar would be here by now, but the date has been pushed back again and again. Will report back, probably with video.

 

[grantsjc]

I installed Sirimoto rear bar on my car. Have it on soft setting right now but feels great! I wanted adjustable bar just in case bigger bar was too much for relaxed street driving. Car has much sharper turn in and front stays hooked up better mid to late turn. Can also invoke a bit of oversteer going into turns if I try. Have 235/40/18 RT 615 K+ on my stock wheels. Car is freaking awesome in turns now. Haven't had a chance to AX as most of my events late season are Porsche club and driving the Porsche AX car. But Im hoping to find SCCA event to run the Honda before year end.

As far as hog wash about SI not being car to AX or a waste putting non adaptive dampers on car. Who cares if you lose OEM adaptive dampers? The technology isn't all that great? More gimmick on SI than real performance enhancer and OEM shocks are pretty weak if any of you have really put the car though its paces on track. OEM shocks in sport mode cant keep up with me when Im moving car quickly and I get wheel hop, lose traction etc. They are great street shock but still come up quite short when car starts moving around quickly in competition. Frankly I cant feel difference between standard and sport settings with OEM adaptive dampers ....or lets put it this way difference is so small I run with sport mode on all the time. ...yes all the time. Slapping a set of "dumb" dampers on car isn't going to cause any issues Im aware of other than maybe an error light on dash. There are usually easy defeats you can pickup for this as well. My Porsche had adaptive dampers that I replaced with set of "dumb" JRZ coilovers. Ask me if I miss my "smart" OEM adaptive dampers? ...Not Been staring at error light on Porsche because im too cheap to by the available aftermarket plugs to take care of error light.

Im just waiting to see a decent damper to come out for Si. Havent seen anything yet? I wonder if the OEM shocks can be revalved ? To me they don't have enough bump. Who knows I may throw a set of coilovers on the car and then Ill have to run some crazy class like ST or SM.

 

[5inn]

Took the civic to its first autocross on Sunday. I’ve been kind of surprised to see to that there hasn’t been more results or impressions posted here. I ran it at the Boston BMWCCA in their SCCA stock class, which had 37 cars. The caliber of drivers here is definitely less than an NER SCCA event.

In the morning I pulled the guide pins and set the toe to 1/8” out (total) in the front, and didn’t touch the rear. I had ordered a CTR bar in mid-September but it’s still nowhere to be found. My co-driver supplied some light Koenig 17x8 wheels with 255 Rival S 1.5s. We ran 37F, 42R which still led to some rollover on the fronts. I did the pedal dance to totally disable the VSA to avoid any chance of intervention.

After my first run I was pleasantly surprised. The car behaved really well. I got a little bit of rotation and some more should be coming with a new stiffer rear bar. Power was not an issue, if anything getting it down can be a problem if you are too penis-y with the throttle. The LSD does help getting the power down out of turns. I haven’t FWD autocrossed in 2 or 3 years so there was some learning curve for me, but once I realized it was about how to efficiently use all 255mm of tires, I improved. Most recently I've driven a SSM Elise and STR S2000. The tires can quickly be overwhelmed if you drive it like a jackass. I was pretty surprised as to how flat it cornered, especially for a stock family sedan.

Results:

BMW’s scoring takes your best morning run and best afternoon run and adds them together, but the list does not account for PAX. 7th raw in a GS car sounds pretty good for me, especially since I took passengers every run except my last one in both the morning and afternoon. Doing some iPhone calculator pax:
Name Pax time Class Car
Doug 108.808 SS 17 Grand Sport
Rachel 110.194 BS Cayman S
Me 110.698 GS Si
Hank 110.886 AS C6Z
Ollie 111.850 AS Boxster S
Lana 112.135 AS C6Z
Donneur 113.273 BS Cayman S

Woulda coulda shoulda Me 69.284 + 68.982 = 109.644

3rd in a totally stock car is okay with me. Next weekend I’ll be driving it at NER SCCA with RS3.5s (RS4s on front, RS3 on the rear) so I expect it to be a bit slower but should still be fun.

Video[video]

Need to mount the camera a bit better/lower for next time.
Hopefully rev-limit won't be a issue. I was on the 56-57 mph limiter a couple places on course and through the finish.
That being said, I still think it would be a viable GS car. The Focus has more power, but with the same size wheels and tires, I'm not sure if it's able to use it.

 

[grantsjc]

Looking good! Yeah I had similar impression with how flat car sits through slaloms. The bigger rear bar will do wonders . That was an ideal course for the car too. Courses that have more 90 to 180 degree turns with slower exits and + 55 MPH sections will be challenging. My car rocked faster slaloms but it has lots of issues with slower stuff if you get off boost much.

 

[5inn]

Looking good! Yeah I had similar impression with how flat car sits through slaloms. The bigger rear bar will do wonders . That was an ideal course for the car too. Courses that have more 90 to 180 degree turns with slower exits and + 55 MPH sections will be challenging. My car rocked faster slaloms but it has lots of issues with slower stuff if you get off boost much.

That's a fairly typical Devens style course. We never get 180* turns which is probably a good thing. I think the ideal course would be a little slower so I'm not banging on the limiter for so long I would think the problem getting out of a dig with the car is being able to put the power down. It's not like a similarly powered RWD car where you can just put your foot to the floor and it'll go. In the Civic, even with the LSD you need to have good throttle control not to roast the tires.

 

[grantsjc]

That's a fairly typical Devens style course. We never get 180* turns which is probably a good thing. I think the ideal course would be a little slower so I'm not banging on the limiter for so long I would think the problem getting out of a dig with the car is being able to put the power down. It's not like a similarly powered RWD car where you can just put your foot to the floor and it'll go. In the Civic, even with the LSD you need to have good throttle control not to roast the tires.

... my RWD car at 2150 lbs and 360 hp the rear grip is sometimes lacking more than this mild mannered fwd Honda . To me Si has way more front grip than say my old 2013 Mini Cooper S. That Mini seemed like I just had to live with fact fronts would be lit up out of every turn. Civic si is pretty easy to modulate and turn in is better so I can afford to let fronts slip a little. Will be interested if you hit slower course to see how you feel as stock tune really has some lag issues if you don't keep rpm up.

When properly setup with some 255/17 RE 71s and rear bar this car should do well against Focus. I think Honda may have a suspension and drive train edge. May not have brutal torque of that 2.3 turbo but chassis is better in my opinion. I really wish honda had put detuned 2.0 turbo in Si. Would have loved slightly more torquey low end. That little 1.5 is just too boost dependent and it gets a little boost deprived in some ax situations .

 

[5inn]

... my RWD car at 2150 lbs and 360 hp the rear grip is sometimes lacking more than this mild mannered fwd Honda . To me Si has way more front grip than say my old 2013 Mini Cooper S. That Mini seemed like I just had to live with fact fronts would be lit up out of every turn. Civic si is pretty easy to modulate and turn in is better so I can afford to let fronts slip a little. Will be interested if you hit slower course to see how you feel as stock tune really has some lag issues if you don't keep rpm up.

When properly setup with some 255/17 RE 71s and rear bar this car should do well against Focus. I think Honda may have a suspension and drive train edge. May not have brutal torque of that 2.3 turbo but chassis is better in my opinion. I really wish honda had put detuned 2.0 turbo in Si. Would have loved slightly more torquey low end. That little 1.5 is just too boost dependent and it gets a little boost deprived in some ax situations .

I'll be sure to post some feedback next weekend. Although I think I'll be on 225 RS4s which are certainly down on grip due to size but also compound. My dealer is still showing a date of 10/26 for the rear bar, so there's a chance I'll have it in before but I'm expecting the date to be pushed again. I think it has potential to do well against the Focus. The Focus ST thankfully only has the 2.0 but it still makes a bunch of power. I would have thought the GTI would have done better in GS at Nationals, but it looks like Focus STs took 7 out of the top 10. My SCCA region is home to the GS-L national champion in a FoST and a decently setup GTI so I'm curious to see how it will do, even on the wrong/smaller tires.

 

[sibanez]

Ran my first autocross in my 17 SI sedan at Hershey. The car is totally stock, except the 235/40/18 Continental ExtremeContactSports. Stock wheels, so no weight savings.

The car is fast, my co-driver was putting down consistent 44.XX times. His fastest clean run was 44.368, compared to Danny Kao's 42.482 in a Type R running RE71Rs and RSB. He had two runs that were 44 flat, but were dirty (just kissing the cone).

A few observations:

1) The car is flat, very little body roll and the suspension works well. Hershey is a bumpy lot and the car felt in control the entire time.
2) Power is not an issue. Actually, you stay in boost almost the entire time you are on course. I ran a 15 WRX for 1.5 years and the Civic feels like it is always pulling.
3) The car is quiet, you bounce off of the rev limiter and really don't realize it until you watch the video.
4) The chassis and motor are really that good.
5) I'm not a fan of the brakes . . . hit them and felt like I needed more. Really weird feeling, maybe the car is just under-tired a bit.

So, plans for 2018 are MOAR TIRE. Picking up six OZ's in 18x. Will try to run 265/35/18 RE71Rs up front and 245 or 255 in the rear.

Going from a BRZ to this is tough . . .the car doesn't like to turn, has tons of power and holds power.

 

[grantsjc]

Ran my first autocross in my 17 SI sedan at Hershey. The car is totally stock, except the 235/40/18 Continental ExtremeContactSports. Stock wheels, so no weight savings.

The car is fast, my co-driver was putting down consistent 44.XX times. His fastest clean run was 44.368, compared to Danny Kao's 42.482 in a Type R running RE71Rs and RSB. He had two runs that were 44 flat, but were dirty (just kissing the cone).

A few observations:

1) The car is flat, very little body roll and the suspension works well. Hershey is a bumpy lot and the car felt in control the entire time.
2) Power is not an issue. Actually, you stay in boost almost the entire time you are on course. I ran a 15 WRX for 1.5 years and the Civic feels like it is always pulling.
3) The car is quiet, you bounce off of the rev limiter and really don't realize it until you watch the video.
4) The chassis and motor are really that good.
5) I'm not a fan of the brakes . . . hit them and felt like I needed more. Really weird feeling, maybe the car is just under-tired a bit.

So, plans for 2018 are MOAR TIRE. Picking up six OZ's in 18x. Will try to run 265/35/18 RE71Rs up front and 245 or 255 in the rear.

Going from a BRZ to this is tough . . .the car doesn't like to turn, has tons of power and holds power.

Funny I had direct opposite impression of brakes and power on the Si. I feel like they are too powerful and Im used to driving a Porsche ax car with big ceramic brakes with 4 piston calipers with 335 rear A7 and 295 front. Dang Honda Si just clamps down hard but then Im not one to over brake in AX. Maybe it was surface you were on with tire you were running. I had a couple of places where I was threshold braking and was damn impressed by Hondas ABS system. power for me wasn't overly impressive but then im used to driving a 2000 lb XP car with 350 hp. I was on course where things occasionally got slow and seemed like Si took forever to get back on boost. Mid speed and fast sections absolutely had decent power but slow stuff it struggled.

 

[sibanez]

If you are saying I over drove the car, I definitely would agree. The Saturday course was fast, and I spent several seconds bouncing off the rev limiter. I've been in the top 5 in pax there in my 15 WRX, but drove a BRZ for most of this year. Guess driving the SI like a BRZ is not a good thing.

As for the brakes, I think they are great, but were probably too much with the Continental Extreme Contact Sports I had on the car. I'll be running 265/35/18 RE71RS in the spring and expect that to help. Hershey is low grip and it was in the 50s, and the tires were stickers.

But, I needed to brake earlier since the car does build up speed fast.

The best way to get faster in this car is to cut distance. Brake early, turn in and throttle out.

I will say, the rev hang kills me. I'm used to blipping the throttle through slaloms and when you let go of the throttle, it just stays there.

It's a fun car, will run some TrackCross events with it over the winter and probably hit up Dixie in April. I'm also building a 2000 Celica GTS for GS, with Konis and a big rear bar. I'll mostly run that at local events since the Civic is really too hard on tires.

Funny I had direct opposite impression of brakes and power on the Si. I feel like they are too powerful and Im used to driving a Porsche ax car with big ceramic brakes with 4 piston calipers with 335 rear A7 and 295 front. Dang Honda Si just clamps down hard but then Im not one to over brake in AX. Maybe it was surface you were on with tire you were running. I had a couple of places where I was threshold braking and was damn impressed by Hondas ABS system. power for me wasn't overly impressive but then im used to driving a 2000 lb XP car with 350 hp. I was on course where things occasionally got slow and seemed like Si took forever to get back on boost. Mid speed and fast sections absolutely had decent power but slow stuff it struggled.

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