BRZ trade in for Type R

FlexRex

Banned
Banned
Joined
May 13, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
474
Reaction score
217
Location
Arizona
Vehicle(s)
WRX and M5
Country flag
I do no want a handicap when I’m competing. If you don’t care that’s your prerogative. I wasn’t comparing anything except for what I said.

Again, are you saying that hypothetically if two of the same cars were racing and one was fwd and another rwd that you’d take the fwd to compete in because it has an advantage over the rwd?
Sponsored

 

tinyman392

Senior Member
First Name
Marcus
Joined
May 21, 2018
Threads
14
Messages
3,265
Reaction score
2,082
Location
Illinois
Vehicle(s)
'18 Civic Type R (RR)
Country flag
I dunno about tracking a fwd car. Maybe if I could not get a rwd. Otherwise tracking a fwd is effectively starting w a handicap.

Miatas and frs are so popular cuz they are rwd and because they are light. That’s two +’s right there to start with. You can add a turbo if needed or wanted but you can’t make a fwd car into a rwd.
FF cars do have some advantage over a FR vehicle, that mainly deals with rotational mass and powertrain loss from the driveshaft required to make a vehicle FR. The bigger thing here would be the power loss from the drivetrain which is typically estimated at 10%, 15%, and 20% for FF, FR, and AWD, respectively (MR incur about 10% as well).

So let's say we have a two identical vehicles just set up to have either an FF, FR, or AWD layout, say that the vehicle makes 300 HP at the crank and weighs 3000 lbs. Most people compute the power to weight ratio of this to be exactly 10, however, in reality it is going to be higher than this after you consider powertrain loss. More specifically, the actual power outputs to the wheels would be 270, 255, and 240 HP for the FF, FR, and AWD counterparts, respectively. This making their power to weight ratio 11.11, 11.76, and 12.5, respectively. Assuming the vehicle can make traction the FF vehicle has full advantage here over the FR and AWD setups. For a skilled driver that knows how to drive each of the power trains well, that driver would in theory perform best with the FF layout. Though that 15HP may not be big, keep in mind that scales linearly with power.

With something like the Type R, once you're past 4k in 2nd gear (around 50MPH), you're freely able to go full throttle without any issue and put full power down which makes the traction issue a non-issue from the point of accelerating. It will understeer and you will have to be patient with it though. The major loss from an FF layout is launching the car at low speeds since the weight transfer works against it. An MR layout helps fix both of these issues however having good launching characteristics, tendency to oversteer vs understeer, and maintaining a low powertrain loss (reason why it's historically been used in motorsport).

I wouldn't say FF is at a disadvantage, you just have to drive it differently than you would an FR or AWD vehicle and be a little more patient with it. You have to drive it smoothly, even moreso, and with any racing, smoother = faster.

Edit: I will say that most people prefer FR because of the fact that most drivers would prefer a car that oversteers vs one that will understeer. That's what FR and MR have over the AWD and FF crowds. MR tends to also have the ability to snap oversteer which is something to be avoided. Though, if you know what you're doing behind the wheel it is possible to make any car oversteer.
 
Last edited:

aldksgo

Senior Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
7
Messages
401
Reaction score
216
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Vehicle(s)
'19 FK8 R-24920, '14 FB2, '10 Impreza 2.5i
Country flag
I do no want a handicap when I’m competing. If you don’t care that’s your prerogative. I wasn’t comparing anything except for what I said.

Again, are you saying that hypothetically if two of the same cars were racing and one was fwd and another rwd that you’d take the fwd to compete in because it has an advantage over the rwd?
So not trying to be rude, but you are asking what i'm saying and it's literally there. Didnt say one is better than the other, i said FWD can be competitive.

No I'm saying FWD can be competitive and is not automatically a writeoff due to FWD/RWD/AWD
 

FlexRex

Banned
Banned
Joined
May 13, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
474
Reaction score
217
Location
Arizona
Vehicle(s)
WRX and M5
Country flag
@aldksgo ..You arent rude. You either cant read or comprehend or are an ass. You choose which one.

Which part of my post writes fwd off, do read and tell me.

Not to be rude, but since you dont comprehend my post, I meant i dont want to he handicapped by fwd and then work hard-er than i would if it were a rwd by throwing money at it to overcome the handicap. I like to start at the most advantageous position i can, which is rwd or awd depending on surface.

Hope that makes sense now. I can make it bold if youd prefer.

@tinyman392 .. i would say fwd is disadvantaged slightly over rwd all things equal.
 

aldksgo

Senior Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Threads
7
Messages
401
Reaction score
216
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Vehicle(s)
'19 FK8 R-24920, '14 FB2, '10 Impreza 2.5i
Country flag
Lol, probably the part where you say

I dunno about tracking a fwd car. Maybe if I could not get a rwd. Otherwise tracking a fwd is effectively starting w a handicap..
Sure maybe you didn't mean to write it off, my bad then. But you're talking about track, where it can be very competitive with all of them. If you were talking about off the line, then I definitely agree with you.

Once again, all good you do man enjoy the holidays
 


tinyman392

Senior Member
First Name
Marcus
Joined
May 21, 2018
Threads
14
Messages
3,265
Reaction score
2,082
Location
Illinois
Vehicle(s)
'18 Civic Type R (RR)
Country flag
@aldksgo ..You arent rude. You either cant read or comprehend or are an ass. You choose which one.

Which part of my post writes fwd off, do read and tell me.

Not to be rude, but since you dont comprehend my post, I meant i dont want to he handicapped by fwd and then work hard-er than i would if it were a rwd by throwing money at it to overcome the handicap. I like to start at the most advantageous position i can, which is rwd or awd depending on surface.

Hope that makes sense now. I can make it bold if youd prefer.

@tinyman392 .. i would say fwd is disadvantaged slightly over rwd all things equal.
I literally just objectively showed how FF has some advantages over FR, mainly in power output, especially when put on a track (vs a drag strip where FF is a major disadvantage and AWD or MR is king). FR cars do allow some handling characteristics drivers may prefer, but it does come at a cost of power.
 

Deleted member 31314

I literally just objectively showed how FF has some advantages over FR, mainly in power output, especially when put on a track (vs a drag strip where FF is a major disadvantage and AWD or MR is king). FR cars do allow some handling characteristics drivers may prefer, but it does come at a cost of power.
A very thorough and valid post on your explanation. I have owned all layouts and each has its merits and drawbacks.

Don't feed the trolls, keyboard racers are always going to argue.
 

Jwolf

I Think I'm Fast
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Threads
12
Messages
592
Reaction score
545
Location
Toronto
Vehicle(s)
Toyota 86, '19 CTR, Some other stuff
Country flag
A very thorough and valid post on your explanation. I have owned all layouts and each has its merits and drawbacks.

Don't feed the trolls, keyboard racers are always going to argue.
I have 9001 hours in Gran Turismo, I know what I'm talking about.
 

FlexRex

Banned
Banned
Joined
May 13, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
474
Reaction score
217
Location
Arizona
Vehicle(s)
WRX and M5
Country flag
I literally just objectively showed how FF has some advantages over FR, mainly in power output, especially when put on a track (vs a drag strip where FF is a major disadvantage and AWD or MR is king). FR cars do allow some handling characteristics drivers may prefer, but it does come at a cost of power.
Sorry i disagree w your succinct yet authoritative post. Im sure im not the only one.

Given all other things equal, i would never choose a fwd car to track over a rwd or awd setup. Id venture as far as saying that in racing application there are no advantages to going fwd given a choice.

When has any team converted an awd or rwd to fwd for purposes of racing cuz it made more sense? Ever?
 

Jwolf

I Think I'm Fast
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Threads
12
Messages
592
Reaction score
545
Location
Toronto
Vehicle(s)
Toyota 86, '19 CTR, Some other stuff
Country flag
Sorry i disagree w your succinct yet authoritative post. Im sure im not the only one.

Given all other things equal, i would never choose a fwd car to track over a rwd or awd setup. Id venture as far as saying that in racing application there are no advantages to going fwd given a choice.

When has any team converted an awd or rwd to fwd for purposes of racing cuz it made more sense? Ever?
I don't think you know as much about racing as you let on.
 


FlexRex

Banned
Banned
Joined
May 13, 2019
Threads
5
Messages
474
Reaction score
217
Location
Arizona
Vehicle(s)
WRX and M5
Country flag
I am definitely not the authority tiny is.

You’re funny, we get that. Do you know of one platform which was converted from rwd or awd to fwd for benefits in racing, and not to include making a fwd class.

Oh, and I understand physics though. Very well.

Attack my argument rather then me pls.
 

FC3L15B7

I'm a machine.
First Name
Daniel
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Threads
15
Messages
557
Reaction score
312
Location
Toronto
Website
www.youtube.com
Vehicle(s)
2020 Honda Civic 2 Door Coupe Si / 1993 Chrysler Intrepid 3.5L
Country flag
i was curious if anyone ever traded in a frs brz for a Type R. I was wondering if i would miss the rawness of the BRZ, i am sure the increased power may make up for it. i really miss my old S2k and i am thinking about going back into a Honda due to had great reliability and really enjoyed my 2000 and 2008 Si even though they were autocrossed and track raced i never had any issues. i test drove an 18 Si but i felt it lacked the road feel i have with the BRZ , but it had great torque and a great manual transmission but seemed to run out of gas fast as compared to the 08 I had.
The only thing you're going to lose is RWD, but the Type-R in overall performance eats the BRZ alive. I don't think you'll care about the BRZ any longer. ;)
 

scot901sc

Member
First Name
Scott
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Threads
2
Messages
18
Reaction score
12
Location
San Diego
Vehicle(s)
2018 Audi A4 allroad
Country flag
keep in mind you are on a civic forum. the brz forum guys might say something different.

Me personally? I'd trade it in. A BRZ in stock form is just way too slow for me.
A very thorough and valid post on your explanation. I have owned all layouts and each has its merits and drawbacks.

Don't feed the trolls, keyboard racers are always going to argue.
I used to have a Scion FR-S and loved the direct transmission linkage and the easy over steer, but now with a 2017 Type R, it just has so much more straight line power and utility. Both are nice cars and I think the BRZ looks better, but for all out performance, the Type R easily is the winner.
 

dunphyjp

PiRRRateJack
First Name
JP
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Threads
3
Messages
46
Reaction score
20
Location
Havertown, Pa
Vehicle(s)
‘01 Impreza 2.5RS Coupe, 19’ Honda Civic Type R
Country flag
I traded my 13 FRS for a Type R, had it for just shy of a year. In my opinion the FRS was better in the snow feeling neutral, and more playful on backroads relative to speed. If you’re having fun in the type R you’re probably in illegal speeds :p but I moved to a type R for trunk space and a backseat for my son who was only 8 months old at the time. Now that he’s front facing it wouldn’t matter as much but if it’s for family reasons you won’t be disappointed.
 

tinyman392

Senior Member
First Name
Marcus
Joined
May 21, 2018
Threads
14
Messages
3,265
Reaction score
2,082
Location
Illinois
Vehicle(s)
'18 Civic Type R (RR)
Country flag
Sorry i disagree w your succinct yet authoritative post. Im sure im not the only one.

Given all other things equal, i would never choose a fwd car to track over a rwd or awd setup. Id venture as far as saying that in racing application there are no advantages to going fwd given a choice.

When has any team converted an awd or rwd to fwd for purposes of racing cuz it made more sense? Ever?
Swapping an FR to an FF is rarely done because of the technical requirements to do so. Additionally, most homologation rules would go against it. As I stated before, FF has its advantages (power output) and its disadvantages (understeer and torque steer). Most drivers prefer an FR car over the FF car because of the handling characteristics that FR has over FF, but that's not to say that FF doesn't have its advantages on a track, and if you can set up an FF car to oversteer, then a driver could in theory use it well to their advantage.

FF race cars are very rare. Most manufacturers that build a race car from the ground up go after an MR setup because it has the advantages an FF car has (power) while still maintaining the advantages an FR car has (handling) which is why you rarely see an FF purpose-built race car. To be honest, FR purpose built race cars are pretty rare nowadays as well since MR is simply better. AWD offers the ability to torque steer without needing to use the brakes which is why it's been used in motorsport.

There was one FF purpose built race car I can remember, the Nissan GT-R LM Nismo prototype that was created. It utilized a very backwards setup with super wide wheels up front, thin wheels in the rear and a full-fledged FF setup. The exhaust outlets were on the hood of the car and it shot flames. Was a pretty cool car that would need a lot of work to make it work against MR cars since they simply had the physics advantage all around. That said, it didn't do so well on its debut running 1:50's over the Porsche's 1:30 times. This is kind of expected in a field of all cars that are either hybrid or MR based vehicles. It was considered a failure, I'll admit, but does show that an FF car can work out in terms of a race car.

Edit: granted this is more focused on rally racing, it's still a thing. Scroll down to "front wheel drive" (it's in all caps).
Sponsored

 
Last edited:


 


Top