Blown Engine "Fear Factor"

[Zcfc3dc5]

I would rather just buy a "better driving car" that was designed to be that way from the beginning,

The people designing these "tunes" are not smarter then the honda engineers are,

Honda engineers could easily get more power out of these engines, but they don't do it because its not safe for the components the engine has, its not safe for the clutch, its not safe for the manual tranny, gears, its not safe for the CVT, its not safe for the drive axles, its not safe for the CV joints, etc etc etc,

Honda cares about the reliability and longevity of your vehicle, Where as, the people designing these "tunes" don't give a crap about your engine,

if you enjoy gambling, then by all means go ahead, most people who like to gamble end up broke

This post is hilarious. Wow

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[EastBayCivic]

This post is hilarious. Wow

I guess everyone with a K&N filter is putting all their chips on double zero!

 

[Civic17siYAY]

I think it really comes down to abuse. I'd be willing to bet 95% of the people with blown motors either screwed with the tune or beat the absolute piss out of their car. MAPerformance beat the bag out of their car when making well over 400hp and it lasted over 100 1\4 mile pulls if I remember correctly. These motors can last when done right.

Two things you can take from this. Dont dick around with the tune unless you know what you're doing and if you decide to beat on your car frequently, dont be surprised if it breaks sooner than expected.

 

[David228cx]

How many non-si 1.5ts have blown around here?

 

[KTuner]

Honda cares about the reliability and longevity of your vehicle, Where as, the people designing these "tunes" don't give a crap about your engine,

Couldn't be further from the truth and our customers know it.

 

[mikey003]

Couldn't be further from the truth and our customers know it.

well then,

if you care so much about your customers vehicles, as much as honda does,

do you provide a warranty for your customers engines when they have issues? the same way honda does?

when someones engine explodes using your "product" and honda turns their warranty claim down (rightfully so), do you step up and replace their engine for them the way honda would have if they wouldn't have messed around with it?

uuummmm, yeah.....i thought not

don't say you care then, you care about $$ thats all, i know it, and you know it

 

[hicompb18c1]

well then,

if you care so much about your customers vehicles, as much as honda does,
do you provide a warranty for your customers engines when they have issues? the same way honda does?

when someones engine explodes using your "product" and honda turns their warranty claim down (rightfully so), do you step up and replace their engine for them the way honda would have if they wouldn't have messed around with it?

uuummmm, yeah.....i thought not
don't say you care then, you care about $$ thats all, i know it, and you know it

No offense, but this is the dumbest thing I've read all day. Asking a tuner to warranty a motor they never built, and have no control over how it gets driven, is just ridiculous.

K Tuner and others care about reliability as much as Honda. You're correct it's only because they want $$, but still, if everyone who used a Ktuner blew their motor, no one would by their product. Same with specific tunes like TSP, etc. Bad reliability = bad for business.

 

[boosted180sx]

yeah cause people have had such great experience with honda warranties when it comes to the big stuff

 

[joshhjackson2112]

well then,

if you care so much about your customers vehicles, as much as honda does,

do you provide a warranty for your customers engines when they have issues? the same way honda does?

when someones engine explodes using your "product" and honda turns their warranty claim down (rightfully so), do you step up and replace their engine for them the way honda would have if they wouldn't have messed around with it?

uuummmm, yeah.....i thought not

don't say you care then, you care about $$ thats all, i know it, and you know it

Lol

 

[gtman]

mikey... what's with your antagonistic attitude?

If you research KTuner, they beta tested their tunes in customer vehicles for thousands of miles before releasing them.

Sure they're a business but they also pride themselves on customer service and being here at the forum virtually daily to answer questions says they are reputable.
.
How could they warrant an engine when people abuse their cars or make adjustments to tune parameters or don't responsibly monitor their cars?

There's a reason these tunes get the love they do here. They've been proven safe and the difference in driveability is phenomenal. Have tuned cars ever had blown motors? Yes. But the cases are few and far between and I've yet to see a proven case where abuse wasn't the issue.

 

[dallasjhawk]

well then,

if you care so much about your customers vehicles, as much as honda does,

do you provide a warranty for your customers engines when they have issues? the same way honda does?

when someones engine explodes using your "product" and honda turns their warranty claim down (rightfully so), do you step up and replace their engine for them the way honda would have if they wouldn't have messed around with it?

uuummmm, yeah.....i thought not

don't say you care then, you care about $$ thats all, i know it, and you know it

How can they warranty something that once it leaves their hands, the end user could do any number of idiotic changes to the tunes to blow shit up. Honestly both your comments are trash and you know it. It's in the best interest of Ktuner to put out safe base maps that everyone can enjoy. Blowing up motors is the last thing they want. Unfortunately, there are some really awful tuners out there and some really moronic users who adjust things without knowing what they are doing and they blow. How is any of that Ktuner or Hondatas fault?

 

[charleswrivers]

Ok...

If basemaps were blowing up cars left and right... then that would make for pretty convincing argument that the product comes with high risk and would likely cause poor(er) sales. It behooves the makers of the tuning devices to provide a product with software that makes a noticeable difference to the end-user so they feel it's money well spent... while not damaging cars to scare off more potential customers. You can say that Ktuner/Hondata aren't liable for damages so all they care about is selling units but if there were cars dead left and right... then the community would not recommend their products. These forums and our generally positive experiences we share are free advertising. It's a small niche market and car product companies are made... or broken on their reputation or the changing tides of things.. Want to see how things can go south for a product? Look at BOV makers or Injen intakes. Bad experiences make for the community recommend against them. It's a fickle business. Even the change to going from N/A to Turbo shook things up. CT Engineering folded after making SCers for 8th and 9th gen Civics and the original NSX. No more NA Civics Sis or NSX... their market collapsed.

Hondata and Ktuner have been pretty transparent about the basemaps… but also about how there is more advanced functionality that can be detrimental to the car. They chose to provide the functionality anyways. One can modify boost targets... timing... fuel trims... any quick enable... any quick adjustment... use anti-lag... use advanced VSA... use whatever concentration of ethanol when running flex-fuel... to their hearts content and possibly to the detriment of their cars.

In my experience, the folks at Ktuner are somewhat free on information about their devices and basic tuning theory but are tight with recommending certain courses of action when making any adjustment off a basemap. They sold a wide-open unlocked item that can let you make adjustments that should be done with someone who's knowledgeable in making the changes and has the ability to analyze the affect of those changes to ensure they are safe for long-term use. They don't freely give very specific tuning advice to novices who neither know really what they changing or how know whether what they changed was good for the car or not. They say the basemaps are safe based on in-house testing... willing beta testers... and based on good history afterwards with it out in the wild... beyond that, you're on your own for the most part.

Even on a basemap… you're out of bounds so far as warranty is concerned to me and you'd better be ready to come out-of-pocket for repairs. That's the way it's always been. If you get Honda to cover a car who's powertrain was damaged due to... or even just in the course of having a tune... you're lucky. If you need to maintain your warranty because you can't afford to pay to play... then you should play it safe and stay stock. 99% of the eventual ~2 million CIvicXs will probably remain stock from the day they're bought to the day they're crushed for scrap. If you're here and looking at reflashing it... congratulations... you're an advanced user.

It's an enthusiast forum... a few really (and I mean really) know what they're doing. Some (and I'd like to group myself in with this group) have a general idea... have read a lot and asked questions and can make some sense of out of things but have neither the experience or tools to be very effective... but are here largely for the experience. Some know next to nothing but jump in anyways and stay in bounds. Some jump in knowing next to nothing and tinker where they shouldn't.

Honda won't willingly warranty a modified car they can prove that the modifications caused the damage... even if they can make a passing assumption it caused the damage. Why would a company selling a product to cause modifications to a vehicle's software and who has zero control of what that customer does to either the software, given it's open-ended nature... or control of how the end user uses their car...? There are some dealers that'll do Hondata locked down tunes... like APR plus tunes will do a light-end tune through a dealer. They are .. again, locked down and don't allow you to do any amount of customization which gets a lot of people in trouble because they can't help themselves. Remember as well... the recent failure was not done on a basemap. This was done while on a 3rd party locked reflash. Ktuner basemap was not involved. Why would Ktuner be liable for any tune any other entity developed and put on a car... with any number of other products added on top of it? I bet if they could get in and do locked basemaps through Honda dealers and there was a buck to be made and hold the warranty... they'd go for it and I'd congratulate them at opening the door to more business.

@mikey003 ... I understand you're taking on the role of the person "against"... but we're talking about grown ass people making decisions to modify something based on a want... and not a need. There's consequences to our choices in life. Risks that are taken to achieve them. If folks weren't willing to accept the consequences of their actions, they shouldn't have taken the risk. Being ignorant of the risk... or being one unlucky person in a hundred or a thousand isn't an excuse either. No one's making anyone buy a tuner and reflash their car... and badgering a person selling a product as not taking responsibility for any and all consequences for actions they largely have no control over isn't presenting a good argument. Honda will duck and dodge warranty claims as they see fit too. Anyone modifying a car should know they may be up shit creek without a warranty.

If your taking up the banner of defending grown ass people who make choices and don't like their outcomes and expect to get bailed out... well... you're going to find this world exhausting.

 

[dallasjhawk]

Ok...

If basemaps were blowing up cars left and right... then that would make for pretty convincing argument that the product comes with high risk and would likely cause poor(er) sales. It behooves the makers of the tuning devices to provide a product with software that makes a noticeable difference to the end-user so they feel it's money well spent... while not damaging cars to scare off more potential customers. You can say that Ktuner/Hondata aren't liable for damages so all they care about is selling units but if there were cars dead left and right... then the community would not recommend their products. These forums and our generally positive experiences we share are free advertising. It's a small niche market and car product companies are made... or broken on their reputation or the changing tides of things.. Want to see how things can go south for a product? Look at BOV makers or Injen intakes. Bad experiences make for the community recommend against them. It's a fickle business. Even the change to going from N/A to Turbo shook things up. CT Engineering folded after making SCers for 8th and 9th gen Civics and the original NSX. No more NA Civics Sis or NSX... their market collapsed.

Hondata and Ktuner have been pretty transparent about the basemaps… but also about how there is more advanced functionality that can be detrimental to the car. They chose to provide the functionality anyways. One can modify boost targets... timing... fuel trims... any quick enable... any quick adjustment... use anti-lag... use advanced VSA... use whatever concentration of ethanol when running flex-fuel... to their hearts content and possibly to the detriment of their cars.

In my experience, the folks at Ktuner are somewhat free on information about their devices and basic tuning theory but are tight with recommending certain courses of action when making any adjustment off a basemap. They sold a wide-open unlocked item that can let you make adjustments that should be done with someone who's knowledgeable in making the changes and has the ability to analyze the affect of those changes to ensure they are safe for long-term use. They don't freely give very specific tuning advice to novices who neither know really what they changing or how know whether what they changed was good for the car or not. They say the basemaps are safe based on in-house testing... willing beta testers... and based on good history afterwards with it out in the wild... beyond that, you're on your own for the most part.

Even on a basemap… you're out of bounds so far as warranty is concerned to me and you'd better be ready to come out-of-pocket for repairs. That's the way it's always been. If you get Honda to cover a car who's powertrain was damaged due to... or even just in the course of having a tune... you're lucky. If you need to maintain your warranty because you can't afford to pay to play... then you should play it safe and stay stock. 99% of the eventual ~2 million CIvicXs will probably remain stock from the day they're bought to the day they're crushed for scrap. If you're here and looking at reflashing it... congratulations... you're an advanced user.

It's an enthusiast forum... a few really (and I mean really) know what they're doing. Some (and I'd like to group myself in with this group) have a general idea... have read a lot and asked questions and can make some sense of out of things but have neither the experience or tools to be very effective... but are here largely for the experience. Some know next to nothing but jump in anyways and stay in bounds. Some jump in knowing next to nothing and tinker where they shouldn't.

Honda won't willingly warranty a modified car they can prove that the modifications caused the damage... even if they can make a passing assumption it caused the damage. Why would a company selling a product to cause modifications to a vehicle's software and who has zero control of what that customer does to either the software, given it's open-ended nature... or control of how the end user uses their car...? There are some dealers that'll do Hondata locked down tunes... like APR plus tunes will do a light-end tune through a dealer. They are .. again, locked down and don't allow you to do any amount of customization which gets a lot of people in trouble because they can't help themselves. Remember as well... the recent failure was not done on a basemap. This was done while on a 3rd party locked reflash. Ktuner basemap was not involved. Why would Ktuner be liable for any tune any other entity developed and put on a car... with any number of other products added on top of it? I bet if they could get in and do locked basemaps through Honda dealers and there was a buck to be made and hold the warranty... they'd go for it and I'd congratulate them at opening the door to more business.

@mikey003 ... I understand you're taking on the role of the person "against"... but we're talking about grown ass people making decisions to modify something based on a want... and not a need. There's consequences to our choices in life. Risks that are taken to achieve them. If folks weren't willing to accept the consequences of their actions, they shouldn't have taken the risk. Being ignorant of the risk... or being one unlucky person in a hundred or a thousand isn't an excuse either. No one's making anyone buy a tuner and reflash their car... and badgering a person selling a product as not taking responsibility for any and all consequences for actions they largely have no control over isn't presenting a good argument. Honda will duck and dodge warranty claims as they see fit too. Anyone modifying a car should know they may be up shit creek without a warranty.

If your taking up the banner of defending grown ass people who make choices and don't like their outcomes and expect to get bailed out... well... you're going to find this world exhausting.

Man, couldn't say it any better.

 

[Civic17siYAY]

yeah cause people have had such great experience with honda warranties when it comes to the big stuff

Was going to say this but you beat me to it.

Honda will fight you tooth and nail to get out of paying for anything.

 

[davemarco]

I think that these kinds of fears exist with every platform out there. The Type R community is terrified of the 400 whp barrier right now, because some of the people that tried to approach it experienced engine failure. Rumors started to circulate that 400 wtq was the failure point of the stock rods, and everyone immediately embraced it as the truth without a whole lot of empirical data. Now that upgraded fuel pumps are being tested and Hondata has released an update that allows us to breach the 400 whp barrier, we'll see if that is truly the case or not. But it's understandable for people to be worried about pushing their engine beyond factory specifications, if for no other reason than because no one wants to find out that there's is that one engine with poor tolerances that detonated at power levels that the average engine can sustain.

On the bright side - when last I checked, a replacement L15B7 engine was between $2K and $3K dollars. By comparison, the cheapest (and best) option for an R owner to replace their engine would be to buy a 4Piston fully built K20C1, which start at ~$8500. Other than that, I've heard that Honda charges over $10K for an OEM replacement (possibly with installation). That's why I'm being patient and waiting to see how things turn out with the early adopters.

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