450W 10 Channel Infotainment - wherer did the 450W come from ?

[SCOPESYS]

Honda states that the 10 Speaker Infotainment Unit is 450W system.

How did the arrive at that ??

( Its 450w Peak, not 450W rms of course !!)
450W peak is quite a bit less than 450W RMS

Well, assuming charging battery voltage is 13.4 v
Max power from a amp running with a 13.4 v rail into 4 ohm speaker is

P(peak) =V*V/R = (13.4 * 13.4 ) / 4 = 45 W (Peak)

45 / Sqrt(2) = 31.8W RMS

45W (peak) looks better than 31W (rms) so, lets use peak, without actually saying that it is peak power.

10 speaker * 24W = 450W (Honda spec)

(Maybe the SUB Speaker is 2 Ohms, but the above is close enough).

If the Sub really is 2 ohms, it should be capable of twice the power of the other speakers. (*ie 90W )
If that SUB channel in the Amp can deliver that amount of power without going into current limit !!!

But, if in the 10 speaker system, there are 4 Tweeters,
Those tweeters should not be being driven to 45W each !! . If there were, it should sound like there is no Mid or Sub at all -- all High Frequency from the Tweeters.

So, after all that, I really have no idea how Honda came with the 450W power rating for their 10 channel system.

450W sure looks good in a Spec, and should sound pretty good as well, but apparently it does not sound so good in the actual car

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[VeriSkye1123]

Have to say their premium speaker system was a joke. Ripped it out about 3 weeks or a month into owning the car and replaced it.

 

[CivicBuff]

Remember the quoted Max power is some times peak at 1khz and the resistance of the speakers is not a fixed.

 

[SCOPESYS]

Remember the quoted Max power is some times peak at 1khz and the resistance of the speakers is not a fixed.

Can someone verify/confirm .. is the OEM Sub 2 ohm or 4 ohm ??

 

[Licensed_Operator]

Can someone verify/confirm .. is the OEM Sub 2 ohm or 4 ohm ??

Can confirm the stock sub is 2 Ohm even though the rest are 4 Ohms(I beleive). Here is a link to a great thread for replacement options/or amp additions. Shoutout to @ctrmofo all the great posts!

Matt

 

[86salmon]

Can confirm the stock sub is 2 Ohm even though the rest are 4 Ohms(I beleive). Here is a link to a great thread for replacement options/or amp additions. Shoutout to @ctrmofo all the great posts!

Matt

Is the sub for CTR the same as the SI? I have doubts since CTR has enclosure and SI is free air

 

[Licensed_Operator]

Is the sub for CTR the same as the SI? I have doubts since CTR has enclosure and SI is free air

That is the sub for CTR which is identical to the Sport Touring HB system. My bad on the confusion with the SI system. I would assume for that the sub itself is that same part, but I don't have hard evidence.

FWIW I wish mine didn't have the enclosure, it was a PITA to swap the sub, as you have to physically remove the enclosure first, and to do so pull pack the liner in the hatch area. There is a hidden screw that I almost pulled out thinking it was a snap in, and the fact there was no need to remove the grill....only after I had removed the grill and had to superglue it back

Thanks for the correction.
Matt

 

[SCOPESYS]

Can confirm the stock sub is 2 Ohm even though the rest are 4 Ohms(I beleive). Here is a link to a great thread for replacement options/or amp additions. Shoutout to @ctrmofo all the great posts!

Matt

If the Stock Sub is really 2 ohms, I can imagine that causing all sorts of issues at high volume settings !!

Replacing a 4ohm sub with a 2 ohm sub could potentially double the music power, but only if the amp and its +12v power source was up to it. (amp is rated for 4 ohm speakers, according to it's label)


I can imagine that the sub amp may well be going into some sort of current limit trying to supply the additional (double) current that it was not designed to supply, as well as causing the other channels amps in the Honda Amp unit to be affected in "who know what" ways.

So as one turns up the volume towards max, the sub output limits and distorts (sound like it is "Mechanically" rattling) and the sub level , relative to the other speakers stops increasing in output as other speakers are turned up further, resulting in an apparent loss of bass at high levels.

Both Symptoms that so many are reporting


The above is just a possible theory, but one that should not be too hard to confirm or disprove. (Hopefully this long holiday weekend !!)

The "Bargain" Honda amp I purchased on Ebay turned out to be "Not such a bargain" because it was Blown (so not so cheap after all )
Got a new replacement today, just in time for the weekend.

All is not lost on the Blown amp, may be repairable, and even if the Power Amps are blown, it might still be able to throw some light on any "filtering processing: that may be going on before the audio hist the final (Blown) Power Output stages.
I'd rather poke around an modify the blown Ebay amp, than the good new one !!

 

[thebutcher]

If you looked at the bottom of the “sub”, like on or around the magnet, shouldn’t it say if it was a 2 or 4 ohm speaker? Shouldn’t there be some form of a label?

What would happen if you disconnected the “sub” from the system. Disconnect the wire at the sub, mess with the balance and fader controls and see how it sounds.

 

[shoegazer]

If you looked at the bottom of the “sub”, like on or around the magnet, shouldn’t it say if it was a 2 or 4 ohm speaker? Shouldn’t there be some form of a label?

What would happen if you disconnected the “sub” from the system. Disconnect the wire at the sub, mess with the balance and fader controls and see how it sounds.

Some speakers are labeled; others are not. If you can borrow a multimeter; you can easily measure the resistance.

If you physically disconnect any speaker from the system; you should at least fade out or turn off that speaker. The paradox of amps and speakers is that *higher resistance* to current flow is generally okay. But not having *enough* resistance will harm the amp.

 

[ctrmofo]

yep, confirmed oem ctr and hatchback sport touring sub is 2 ohms. both models have exactly same 12 speaker system, head unit, and amp.

civic si sub is totally different and on the rear deck with free air resonance sub.

no need to speculate this, but it's by design: stock head unit just like most mass produced cars wou auto attenuate (cuts) bass when volume is high passed a certain limit for one reason and one reason only - warranty. honda like other mfgers don't want to have to replace subs under warranty knowing they used low cost parts. i've already confirmed with honda engineers the cost to honda for speakers: $1 for tweeters, $2 for 6.5" door speakers, and $8 for the sub and enclosure. auto attenuation saves costs for the mfger...well known. this is why companies like audio control came out with signal processors like lc2i, lc5i, lc7i, etc. to restore the bass back. also, stock amp is too weak to drive all 11 main channels and 100w dedicated to sub. no wonder there's limited bass.

stock 8" sub is low quality paper cone (see pics for various subs tested and weighed to compare vs. stock). tested low profile subs (pioneer and kicker) to fit stock mounting depth first then with deeper subs with larger magnets (alpine type r and jl audio).

i've tested several scenarios in my ctr and results were as follow, thus solutions i've recommended in the full speaker and sub upgrade thread:

1) if replacing stock 2 ohms sub with 4 ohms - result is 1/2 the bass volume, defeats purpose. head unit doesn't not shut down...you simply hear half as much bass AND head unit still attenuates bass at higher volumes.

2) if replacing stock 2 ohms sub with 2 ohms - result is fine but aftermarket sub will only improve bass by about 25% since sub would be better cone and magnet than stock. head unit works fine AND still attenuates bass at higher volumes.

3) if replacing stock 2 ohms sub with 1 ohm - result is fine for about 10-15 mins ONLY, at which time head unit shuts down the stock amp and no volume comes out of ANY speakers at all. music will still play, but amp is over driven with a a lower load ala 1/2 the load of oem sub. it takes about 15 mins for the head unit to release the volume again, and cycle repeats. else you'd have to shut down the car and restart to power cycle the head unit and amp. that's a pain in ass.

best solution includes all the following - full and complete use of trunk space, no big box, and no attenuation of bass at any volume level. it's quite simple!

1) replace stock 8" 2 ohms sub with a deeper 8" sub at 4 ohms, 2 ohms, or 1 ohms...each with a larger magnet and designed for the stock sub enclosure (i measured with water to be 0.309 cubic feet gross internal volume...ideal size for a few high quality sub i've tested for sealed enclosures). larger magnet = deeper mounting depth required and much better bass performance and response. tested and reviewed were alpine type r dual voice coil 8" sub and jl audio w3v3 8" sub (current and final setup).

2) requires palindrome labs deeper sub grill kit - replaces stock plastic grill allowing for a deeper mounting sub with up to 4-7/8" mounting depth (stock sub or low profile replacement subs only allow for 3-5/8" mounting depth max).

3) requires audio control lc2i bass restore signal processor.

4) requires external mono amp to drive 4 ohms, 2 ohms, or 1 ohms sub, respectively.

 

[SCOPESYS]

If you looked at the bottom of the “sub”, like on or around the magnet, shouldn’t it say if it was a 2 or 4 ohm speaker? Shouldn’t there be some form of a label?

What would happen if you disconnected the “sub” from the system. Disconnect the wire at the sub, mess with the balance and fader controls and see how it sounds.

Started with some basic "subjective" test today ..

To get some "speakers" set up, I bought some old speakers from Goodwill (to get the boxes), and started putting new modern speakers into them ( Mid range cost).
The interesting one was the Sub.
Put a 300W 12" sub into on of the boxes.

Set all all other speaker outputs to 4 ohm loads.

Played some Classic Rock, with a strong Bass Guitar line.
Turned SUB up to max.
AT 50W peak , could hardly hear anything !!!

The output (on scope) was showing low freq Bass Guitar, nice sine waves, going full rail (12v peak-peak), with only a very occasional slight limiting. Sounded good, but was hardly audible. Could, feel it, and see the cone moving a far amount, but would be hardly audible over the other speakers, if they were connected.
Set sub back to Mid Gain.

Turned on Front Speakers .. Bass/mid/Treble at Mid positions.
AT max volume, it was evident that a lot of Bass was still going to the door speakers.
(Cone moving !!).
Turning the Bass up, (at full volume) was NOT a good idea. the 300W mid range speakers Bottomed out on the bass, producing a Buzzing .. even through voltage was not limiting

SO turning the BASS up to max, is not an ideal way to get more Bass at full volume from the side speakers.

The BEST audio came form the Center speaker, for which I had fitted a 3 way 10" speaker. Will defiantly be looking into swapping out the Car's Center front speaker, as this seems to be the one that the driver (and Passenger) hear over the others.

SO, like so many have concluded, the SUB is the item that needs addressing... if you want more Pronounced bass, then the current 50W (peak) sub amp is greatly lacking..

Note. Music source was a MP3, played through the USB, and the file has been Gain Maximiized, so loudest part was 100% dynamic range.

With bass/mid/treble set at mid, and at max volume, the peak was up to 12v peak-peak, with no clipping, which is what one would hope for.

Increasing Bass "can: caused clipping on loud bass audio, which make it BUZZ and sound like a rattle !!
Also, if the peak Bass has caused the front & rear side speaker cone to more to it's full range, there is little extra movement available for the mid frequencies on the side speakers. (there were 300W peak speakers !!)

For SUB, I am thinking more of s "Butt Shaker" speaker, (under the driver (and may also passenger) seat) that one ca FEEL the Bass, rather than trying to put a higher powered sub in the back, and trying to hear it in the car's limiting environment.

But, as it stands at the moment the SUB may as well not be there -- it is adding virtually nothing to the front driver's and Passenger's listening pleasure !@!

And this is using better speakers in reasonable enclosures.. far better than the Car's speakers, mounted in the doors, and the sub, just mounted in the back, with no sub enclosure !!!

 

[repeet]

Um... It's 45 watts per speaker times ten speakers. So 45X10=450 watts total power. The argument is whether that amounts to 450 watts of acoustic power. Which it really doesn't.

 

[SCOPESYS]

Um... It's 45 watts per speaker times ten speakers. So 45X10=450 watts total power. The argument is whether that amounts to 450 watts of acoustic power. Which it really doesn't.

My mistake then,, 45W Peak per channel .. still, for the sub, ( with a far from optimum mounting) that is grossly inadequate !!

 

[SCOPESYS]

Opened up the 10 Channel amp today to see what the Power amp chip is.

They are TDA569B ( Power S036) ... spec says they can drive 2 ohms.
Mitsubishi Label on Honda AMP case specs the unit for 4 ohm.

The TDA569B has a sophisticated thermal management system that will reduce the power delivered from the chip, to maintain thermal control.

So, its not unreasonable to have of the 4 channels, in one of the 3 chips, driving a 2 ohm Sub.

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