27Won W1 turbo upgrade

[r.camlin]

So I've read just about every thread I could find on the W1.

I have a 2019 CVT Hatch Sport, and the idea of pushing the peak torque further to the right while still squeezing substantial power out of the mid and high range is very appealing to me. I don't mind the low end lacking in instant torque delivery. While it's fun to feel the car spring forward from a stop every time I give more than 20% throttle, it kind of makes me cringe every time knowing the stress it's likely dealing to my transmission. Basically, I like driving around town in a fairly tame manner, and I really only expect it to wake up when my right foot demands it. And when it wakes up, I want it to be wide f***king awake... safely...

My questions, mainly for the 27Won team I guess, are:

What do I need to do to make this upgrade happen? I have Hondata and am running the +6psi map with minor customization for my PRL Cobra.

Has there been any substantial data accumulated from CVT drivers running the W1 yet? (I'm aware of the thread that exists for this, but there's not much there)

I plan on also upgrading my downpipe and exhaust very soon as well to further control the low-end torque while enhancing the higher end overall power.

Thank you in advance.

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[Myx]

I am right with you on reading all the different threads/posts and other info.

Seems in general from the dyno plots though, for the Top End
+18whp gain Untuned (For $1500 plus installation costs if you are not installing)
+42whp gain Tuned (Depending on who's tuning it of course though) **Tuning Costs additional**
+62whp gain Tuned on E85 **Tuning Costs Additional**

Here's the part that bothers me because despite my addiction to top end horsepower like a crackhead....It's the Lowend that I drive in almost 90% of the time.
-80whp loss @2800rpm Untuned
-75whp loss @2800rpm Tune don E85 (Although I won't be using E85).

I can't get this untuned hp/torque loss out of my head. I was driving my family around all last week to some local jazz festivals, with the trunk loaded. Casually driving around, I never really went over 3000rpm. Generally stayed in the 1800-3000rpm range. I kept thinking about how the car would feel with the 27WON turbo upgrade. Of course I'd eventually have it tuned but still.

As for the dragstrip, I had wondered what the lowend torque/horsepower loss would translate on the dragstrip. The 60ft and 330ft would suffer, no doubt. So I've been glued to the 1/4 mile threads and lurking to read more info. The topend is friggin' awesome though....TUNED.

I guess this'll be yet another thread I'll be glued too and in lurk mode.

 

[r.camlin]

Yeah I really can't find much -practical- information from people using it, and even still their driving habits will be a variable.

I'd like to imagine it'd go a little something like this:

Controllable low-end, but like, it's still a turbo car, so still "capable" I suppose. In other words, it doesn't get noticeably slower. Just a little more reigned in I suppose. Power is still there but the onset is more gentle(?)

Punchy, building mid-range.

Steady climb to redline, yUgE PowAh bRo mAN (racecar stuff)

 

[LilToTo17]

Yeah I really can't find much -practical- information from people using it, and even still their driving habits will be a variable.

I'd like to imagine it'd go a little something like this:

Controllable low-end, but like, it's still a turbo car, so still "capable" I suppose. In other words, it doesn't get noticeably slower. Just a little more reigned in I suppose. Power is still there but the onset is more gentle(?)

Punchy, building mid-range.

Steady climb to redline, yUgE PowAh bRo mAN (racecar stuff)

CVT's can really only handle around 250wtq so with the W1 you could possibly be 270-280 whp and have around 250wtq lol

 

[r.camlin]

CVT's can really only handle around 250wtq so with the W1 you could possibly be 270-280 whp and have around 250wtq lol

There's people out there pulling much higher numbers out of their CVT. I feel like it's been pretty well established at this point that it's not torque alone that kills a CVT. From what I understand, it's highly conditional.

Such as rapid torque delivery at low RPM (a major reason why I'm interested in the W1), and doing silly shit like boost braking and launching. To my understanding, where and how the torque hits is a huge factor in its impact on the engine and transmission. Even Hondata admitted that there's not just a blanket torque threshold where things start to get sketchy, which is why they made their torque limit tables adjustable on their CVT tunes. Apparently they weren't adjustable in the beginning until they delved a little deeper into the subject.

 

[LilToTo17]

There's people out there pulling much higher numbers out of their CVT. I feel like it's been pretty well established at this point that it's not torque alone that kills a CVT. From what I understand, it's highly conditional.

Such as rapid torque delivery at low RPM (a major reason why I'm interested in the W1), and doing silly shit like boost braking and launching. To my understanding, where and how the torque hits is a huge factor in its impact on the engine and transmission. Even Hondata admitted that there's not just a blanket torque threshold where things start to get sketchy, which is why they made their torque limit tables adjustable on their CVT tunes. Apparently they weren't adjustable in the beginning until they delved a little deeper into the subject.

You do know the point of the W1 turbo on any car I have seen including my own Si is that the torque curve is shifted later

 

[r.camlin]

You do know the point of the W1 turbo on any car I have seen including my own Si is that the torque curve is shifted later

Yes. That's exactly what I was saying.

One of the main reasons I'm interested in the W1 is for the fact that it will lighten the load at low RPM and prevent overly rapid torque delivery while still beefing up the mid to high range.

 

[Myx]

@LilToTo17 You have the 27WON! How could @r.camlin utilize it in his CVT? Pros/Cons... Or do you think it would be a waste of time because a CVT can't get full use out of it's power potential.

 

[LilToTo17]

There's people out there pulling much higher numbers out of their CVT. I feel like it's been pretty well established at this point that it's not torque alone that kills a CVT. From what I understand, it's highly conditional.

Such as rapid torque delivery at low RPM (a major reason why I'm interested in the W1), and doing silly shit like boost braking and launching. To my understanding, where and how the torque hits is a huge factor in its impact on the engine and transmission. Even Hondata admitted that there's not just a blanket torque threshold where things start to get sketchy, which is why they made their torque limit tables adjustable on their CVT tunes. Apparently they weren't adjustable in the beginning until they delved a little deeper into the subject.

@LilToTo17 You have the 27WON! How could @r.camlin utilize it in his CVT? Pros/Cons... Or do you think it would be a waste of time because a CVT can't get full use out of it's power potential.

I wouldn't say it'll be a waste. But torque curve is definitely shifted to the right and even for the Si this is to make the rods last longer and run safer. CVT well know that from Vit and DRob it's really limited to around 250wtq and that has been proven so. You could enjoy the extra power it's added by the turbo but being limited to that much torque you have to ask is the price worth it or could you just go flex fuel on that turbo and have it custom tuned by DRob.

 

[r.camlin]

I wouldn't say it'll be a waste. But torque curve is definitely shifted to the right and even for the Si this is to make the rods last longer and run safer. CVT well know that from Vit and DRob it's really limited to around 250wtq and that has been proven so. You could enjoy the extra power it's added by the turbo but being limited to that much torque you have to ask is the price worth it or could you just go flex fuel on that turbo and have it custom tuned by DRob.

Yeah that's my thing. I'd love to just go FlexFuel and call it a day, but almost nowhere around me sells E85, and then there comes all the stuff I'd need to do to make FlexFuel work for me. And the W1 would kind of accomish two things for me: extra power up top and extra reliability down low. With all the stuff I have planned or have done to my car I want to upgrade my con rods eventually too. I probably don't need it with all I'm doing, but having more stout internals gives me peace of mind and a comfortable sense of longevity/capability.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

Yep, Yep, and Yep...
Having the tuner that is most familiar with the CVT already is the essential ingredient. Fussing with the torque tables and the boost delivery to keep the torque from peeking until a bit over 4200-4300rpm. Not optimum from a dig and definitely not a street-able preference. A better experience would be the prudent choice to aim for a hearty 250hp and 220lbft (roughly). No need for high HP - How fast do you hope to achieve? Unless strictly for a racing application or number to brag of. Besides, this way the torque can be demanded sooner than above 4200rpm and with less boost (on the W1 of course) and everything else is cooler and efficient rather than pushing for more.

 

[r.camlin]

Yep, Yep, and Yep...
Having the tuner that is most familiar with the CVT already is the essential ingredient. Fussing with the torque tables and the boost delivery to keep the torque from peeking until a bit over 4200-4300rpm. Not optimum from a dig and definitely not a street-able preference. A better experience would be the prudent choice to aim for a hearty 250hp and 220lbft (roughly). No need for high HP - How fast do you hope to achieve? Unless strictly for a racing application or number to brag of. Besides, this way the torque can be demanded sooner than above 4200rpm and with less boost (on the W1 of course) and everything else is cooler and efficient rather than pushing for more.

I'm understanding what you're saying, but could you clarify/direct it a little more? Are you supporting the idea of the W1? I'm not terribly concerned with how quick I can leap off the line from a dig, as that's not really great for my car anyway.

I would definitely get it pro-tuned, and that's on my list as it is already. Just, like I said, I dig the idea of keeping the low range safer for my transmission and the high range strong(er) for when I need/want it.

The idea of a more physically substantial turbo appeals to me too as, in my experience, smaller moving parts need to work harder to generate comparable output, and thus run hotter and more rapidly experience fatigue.

Honestly, it's just in my nature to tinker with things. I'm fascinated by the task of extracting the most power I can from my car without ruining it, and finding the perfectly smooth balance of performance and reliability and making all these things work together. We're all in pursuit of perfection anyway, right?

Also, update, I just searched for E85 stations near me and there's like 3 or 4 in NJ, with the closest more than an hour away lol.

 

[Hollywoo0220]

I'm understanding what you're saying, but could you clarify/direct it a little more? Are you supporting the idea of the W1? I'm not terribly concerned with how quick I can leap off the line from a dig, as that's not really great for my car anyway.

I would definitely get it pro-tuned, and that's on my list as it is already. Just, like I said, I dig the idea of keeping the low range safer for my transmission and the high range strong(er) for when I need/want it.

The idea of a more physically substantial turbo appeals to me too as, in my experience, smaller moving parts need to work harder to generate comparable output, and thus run hotter and more rapidly experience fatigue.

Honestly, it's just in my nature to tinker with things. I'm fascinated by the task of extracting the most power I can from my car without ruining it, and finding the perfectly smooth balance of performance and reliability and making all these things work together. I'm just trying to understand and absorb as much as I can, so I'm sorry for all the questions and attempts at creating discussion, but I've fallen in love with this whole thing lol.

Also, update, I just searched for E85 stations near me and there's like 3 or 4 in NJ, with the closest more than an hour away lol.

Yes. I do support the notion of the W1.
When using the E85 blend you will require less PSI and you would want 2 tunes; One for the E85 and the other for Pump, in the event you do not have E85 available (travel etc..).
I was once skeptical, but the tuning prowess as of now is available.

 

[r.camlin]

Yes. I do support the notion of the W1.
When using the E85 blend you will require less PSI and you would want 2 tunes; One for the E85 and the other for Pump, in the event you do not have E85 available (travel etc..).
I was once skeptical, but the tuning prowess as of now is available.

Then I'll likely add the W1 to my list. I like the idea of all it has to offer, and a bigger turbo by sheer logic couldn't make my car slower. Maybe less "nimble" in the low range, but that's kind of what I want anyway. If for nothing else but peace of mind. So long as I can still do racecar things when I want to (i.e. WOT) then I'm more than happy.

Cooler, smoother, more controlled = more overall power by my calculations.

Likely just gonna get tuned for 93 though, as that's really all I have around me. Might get an E85 tune when I have the disposable cash just for fun, but it's really impractical for where I live, much to my chagrin.

 

[LilToTo17]

Then I'll likely add the W1 to my list. I like the idea of all it has to offer, and a bigger turbo by sheer logic couldn't make my car slower. Maybe less "nimble" in the low range, but that's kind of what I want anyway. If for nothing else but peace of mind. So long as I can still do racecar things when I want to (i.e. WOT) then I'm more than happy.

Cooler, smoother, more controlled = more overall power by my calculations.

Likely just gonna get tuned for 93 though, as that's really all I have around me. Might get an E85 tune when I have the disposable cash just for fun, but it's really impractical for where I live, much to my chagrin.

Does 27Won even offer a basemap for their turbo on cvt's? I also heard it's hard to tune cvt's.

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