2019 1.5L - Watch Your Oil Levels....

[amirza786]

In my experience, I've found fuel/water contamination to be higher when oil samples are taken cold. Not sure if that applies here or not, but worth the consideration.

Oil analysis is not really my forte. But based on what I know, those readouts looks really good. Wear metals are low, suggesting that the oil continues to maintain sufficient protection throughout its service life (despite the increased presence of fuel).

My 2 cents...

EDIT: removed my subsequent comments... was reading the Blackstone results in reverse order lol.




We've noticed a consistent readout of +5% dilution coming back from Polaris Labs. But as previously mentioned, wear metals always come back low. So despite the "reportedly" high dilution, it's not causing any adverse side effects. The consensus from other threads is that it's not an issue.

I totally agree. Modern synthetic oil has been designed to have longer change intervals, and has better dispersants to handle fuel dilution from DI engines

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[Design]

Just got my latest results from Blackstone:

• Mobile1 EP, 0W-20
• 45K on the car, 6.8K on the oil, pulled at around 12%
• Sample taken 45 min after driving 11 miles
• Running Ktuner Factory/23 PSI base map

I think the results speak for themselves.

 

[ebhaynz]

1. I change my oil when the mm tells me(about 7,500 miles).
2. Yes, Synthetic, $50 at a shop.
3. I make sure the oil level is between the dots.
4. I never go to the dealer for anything.
5. My Si is running like a mf'er..absolutely no problems whatsoever.
6. Everywhere I go, I see 10gen Civics. I mean, EVERYWHERE. they're going up hills, down hills, flat roads, hiways, side streets, cross country, mountains, bridges, tracks, even cold weather! Honestly, I don't know Honda does it. They make a car with a turbo and it works, something many other car companies aren't very good at. I change my oil at 7,500 miles and it runs well..everyday. W E I R D.

 

[amirza786]

Just got my latest results from Blackstone:

• Mobile1 EP, 0W-20
• 45K on the car, 6.8K on the oil, pulled at around 12%
• Sample taken 45 min after driving 11 miles
• Running Ktuner Factory/23 PSI base map

I think the results speak for themselves.

That is awesome! You could have gone to almost 0%, but 12% on the MM is probably smart. Proof that the Ktuner and or TSP Maps don't harm this engine. Just stay away from the temptation of bolt-on's and 300 whp and you will easily go over 100K!

 

[Gruber]

Smelling your oil, judging it by its color, or even witnessing some rise in the oil level is not the way to judge if there is a problem. The exception would be coolant or the smell of coolant in the oil, or if the oil is foaming or smells burnt, or has become very thick (like honey or syrup). Another exception would be finding pieces of metal. Then I would be concerned

Smell of fuel is baloney, especially when the sniff test is performed by people who never had changed oil in their lifetime and maybe also own their first car.... The oil in any car I ever owned smelled like fuel + exhaust. But I never-ever owned a car with oil level increasing.

The most reliable test of oil dilution is the oil level on the dipstick. Blackstone lab test based on the flash point is extremely inaccurate and always underestimates the content of fuel. The volatile fuel components are evaporated to an unknown extent, and only the heavier components remain. There is no way for the lab to know what is the volatility of the fuel remaining in oil, so the flash point test is worthless quantitatively.

More advanced methods of analysis like all kinds of spectroscopies and chromatographies are expensive and they are subject to error due to insufficient knowledge of the personnel doing the analyses. The operator presses the buttons on the machine, and gets the printout, but usually doesn't have an idea how it works and what to do when something seems to be off.

So, stick to the dipstick. For a typical owner, here is no other practical way to know accurately the degree of oil dilution.

 

[Gruber]

Of course, but I’m saying a rising oil level itself is not an “issue”.

Actually, the opposite is true. The only issue is the raising level of oil. This engine will work fine with significant fuel in the oil, until the level raises so high that misfires start, and it thankfully goes into limp mode. The lubrication also would fail because of too high oil level which eventually could cause engine failure, if it was possible to drive any longer time under so grossly overfilled oil condition.

Moderate oil dilution to the end of the orange plastic tip of the dipstick would not cause any symptoms detectable by the owner even long term.

 

[mvela]

Actually, the opposite is true. The only issue is the raising level of oil. This engine will work fine with significant fuel in the oil, until the level raises so high that misfires start, and it thankfully goes into limp mode. The lubrication also would fail because of too high oil level which would eventually could cause engine failure, if it was possible to drive any longer time under so grossly overfilled oil condition.

Moderate oil dilution to the end of the orange plastic tip of the dipstick would not cause any symptoms detectable by the owner even long term.

That’s about where it goes on my dipstick whenever it’s time for an oil change. I do my own oil changes on both my 1.5t and 2.0na and I always fill till the top dot. When it’s time to change, my 2.0na is still at the same dot, while the 1.5t is right at the top of the orange plastic.

 

[Gruber]

The last thing I will say on this topic is that in my 40 or so years of motoring experience, *most* engines, whether DI, SFI. or even carbureted, *consume* oil through blowby and other effects of IC engines. The 1.5T is the only engine where I've consistently observed the oil level rising over time. *Something* is getting into the oiling system, and it isn't coolant.

As mentioned, the 2.0T in my 2019 Type-R does not experience this.

You are right. You betcha "something" gets in the oil and it's fuel. What else could it be? Morning dew? Bird's milk? Sweat and tears of angels?

Just a couple of weeks ago I sucked out via the dipstick tube about 0.65 qt of oil. This decreased the level on my dipschtick from about 6.5 mm above the full mark to 5 mm below. So it was at least 1/3 qt overfilled. Only ~1300+ miles earlier, I changed the oil myself and filled exactly to the full mark. When I say exactly, I mean it was less than 0.5 mm above or below. I measure the level of oil on the dipstick with the precision and repeatability better than ±0.5 mm.

Then I checked the oil multiple times over weeks after the oil change and initially it remained right on the full mark. Then, suddenly when it became colder?, it started to rise, and yes, rose by a full 6.5 mm over less than 1000 miles. I have been driving relatively little, and mostly short trips, but never extremely short, always at least to the operating coolant temperature.

So my fuel dilution was with 100 % certainty at least 0.33 qt/4 qt = about 8%. This is one part heavier fuel components to 12 parts of fuel-diluted oil in the crankcase. I suspect Blackstone analysis would say 2%.... but this will remain unknown because I have never sent any of my oil for analysis.

Assumptions here are only two: (1) the amount of oil burned in this low mileage engine is zero, and (2) the volumetric effect of mixing oil and gasoline is negligible for this purpose.

Am I upset by the fuel dilution? Not even a tiny bit. I like this power train and it's fun to observe what's going on.

 

[Gruber]

My oil analysis came in. Despite my not noticing a rising oil level and having good driving habits (with regards to heating up the engine, no short trips, etc) it shows >5% dilution. Doesn't appear to be a problem, however...

As you see, gas chromatography shows over 5% fuel dilution, but you somehow don't see it on the dipstick. It would be quite obviously overfilled. Unless your car is simultaneously burning oil.
In another post above, someone else can see oil dilution on the dipstick, but the flashpoint method says it's less than 1.5%.

All these methods are generally unreliable, unless verified. Dipstick is always reliable and accurate.

The problem seems to be, that for reasons I can not comprehend, some people just are unable to read the dipstick. The dipstick in the 1.5T is very easy to read even on hot engine (if you want to make it more difficult) because of the short and straight tube. There is zero difference between hot and cold readings, as I checked just recently again. The reading is exactly the same 5 minutes after driving 20 miles and next day in the morning in cool garage.

 

[JT Si]

As you see, gas chromatography shows over 5% fuel dilution, but you somehow don't see it on the dipstick. It would be quite obviously overfilled. Unless your car is simultaneously burning oil.
In another post above, someone else can see oil dilution on the dipstick, but the flashpoint method says it's less than 1.5%.

All these methods are generally unreliable, unless verified. Dipstick is always reliable and accurate.

The problem seems to be, that for reasons I can not comprehend, some people just are unable to read the dipstick. The dipstick in the 1.5T is very easy to read even on hot engine (if you want to make it more difficult) because of the short and straight tube. There is zero difference between hot and cold readings, as I checked just recently again. The reading is exactly the same 5 minutes after driving 20 miles and next day in the morning in cool garage.

In my case the dipstick reading is irrelevant. I measured the oil I drained out and it was not measureably more than I put in.

 

[amirza786]

Smell of fuel is baloney, especially when the sniff test is performed by people who never had changed oil in their lifetime and maybe also own their first car.... The oil in any car I ever owned smelled like fuel + exhaust. But I never-ever owned a car with oil level increasing.

The most reliable test of oil dilution is the oil level on the dipstick. Blackstone lab test based on the flash point is extremely inaccurate and always underestimates the content of fuel. The volatile fuel components are evaporated to an unknown extent, and only the heavier components remain. There is no way for the lab to know what is the volatility of the fuel remaining in oil, so the flash point test is worthless quantitatively.

More advanced methods of analysis like all kinds of spectroscopies and chromatographies are expensive and they are subject to error due to insufficient knowledge of the personnel doing the analyses. The operator presses the buttons on the machine, and gets the printout, but usually doesn't have an idea how it works and what to do when something seems to be off.

So, stick to the dipstick. For a typical owner, here is no other practical way to know accurately the degree of oil dilution.

Except for the first line you wrote, I 100 percent disagree with you on your statement on lab testing, but you have a right to your opinion. I do agree that flash point analysis is not 100 percent accurate, but doesn't need to be as this test is used as an indicator of a possible problem (fuel dilution only becomes an issue if fuel is not dispersed from the oil and continues to build up). I used two different Labs for two different oil samples (from two different oil changes, same car) and although both use different methods for testing for fuel dilution, both analysis were very close. I like Blackstone better because they take the time to explain the results in plain English. But again, you have the right to use any method that satisfies you.

 

[Design]

The problem seems to be, that for reasons I can not comprehend, some people just are unable to read the dipstick. The dipstick in the 1.5T is very easy to read even on hot engine (if you want to make it more difficult) because of the short and straight tube. There is zero difference between hot and cold readings, as I checked just recently again. The reading is exactly the same 5 minutes after driving 20 miles and next day in the morning in cool garage.

Odd, mine is different. I notice a delta of 1-2 mm between hot and cold samples. Hot is pulled similar to you - about 5-7 min following shutdown of a typical 10-12 mile drive. Theoretically it makes sense, as oil continues to drain from the various valvetrain components, feeds, and lines for up to 15 minutes.

Mobile 1 EP 0W-20.

if that is the case, i would only fill it half way between the dots when you change your oil,

having your oil level above the full line is never recommended and can do damage over long periods of time

On factory OCI's, I would not recommend filling lower than the recommended limit. Otherwise you are purposely increasing the rate of dilution between fuel/water and the oil, from the get-go. These motors reportedly have wide operating parameters. And per @Gruber 's comment, would be subject to misfire DTCs if the level were truly a problem.

 

[FlexRex]

half way between the marks is not lower then the recommended limit,

oil level anywhere between those marks is fine, thats why they are there

Yes..but 10cc of fuel into 4L oil is not the same dilution as 10cc of fuel into 3.5L oil even though they both may fill within specs on dipstick. That’s what Design was trying to say I think.

 

[Gruber]

In my case the dipstick reading is irrelevant. I measured the oil I drained out and it was not measureably more than I put in.

Well, what I'm saying is that if you had indeed >5% oil dilution as your analysis said, you would need to have at least about 3/4 cup extra volume of oil. If you couldn't measure it, then either your measurement or theirs was inaccurate.

 

[Gruber]

Yes..but 10cc of fuel into 4L oil is not the same dilution as 10cc of fuel into 3.5L oil even though they both may fill within specs on dipstick. That’s what Design was trying to say I think.

Of course, but.... I'm now investigating the apparent effect of significant slowing down or almost stopping oil dilution with under filling of just several millimeters. I've seen this on two occasions when I left the oil under the full mark. Also someone else on the forum saw this.

After removing some oil as I described above, I left it at minus 5 mm. I'll see where it goes from there. The other effect is that it seems like the Mobil1 0w20 Ultimate really invites dilution, while M1 0w30 AFE doesn't.

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