2018 Premium Audio System

josby

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Output_vs_Volume_Control.jpg


It does not matter what frequency you are considering, the Output vs Volume control level follows the same curve.
The testing I did found, like you did, that there was no difference above 200Hz at different volume levels. But I did find that there is actually a gain in volume below 100Hz relative to the rest of the music as you turn the volume down. Nothing happens as you go down from volume 40 to 29, but below 29 there starts to be a difference, and below 20 the differences get bigger.
Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System vol-40-29
Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System vol-29-20
Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System vol-20-15
 

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FYI, I also checked to see if the SVC (Speed Volume Compensation) changes the frequency output curve at all, and found that it does not - it just increases the volume across the board:

Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System asdf
 

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So maybe this is a stupid question, but what are you guys using to test and get these nice frequency graphs? An oscilloscope? I'd love to have a way to easily tune this new DPS to get the output I'd like without trying to do it by ear. Is there a phone app or something I can use or does it require special equipment?
 
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FYI, I also checked to see if the SVC (Speed Volume Compensation) changes the frequency output curve at all, and found that it does not - it just increases the volume across the board:

asdf.png

Thanks for the confirmation.

I very much like your Plots .. How did you create them.? Do you use a specific App, or ????
Takes me for ever to create mine, I have to measure each point on a True RMS DVM, and then plot it all out in Excel !! You seem to have a much better method ??
 
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Further to my theory that Honda Civics have a LOUDNESS function, turned ON all the time ..
I tried this with a aftermarket Android unit, that has a "LOUDNESS" on/off Control. ( Eonon GS2170B )

I Found, as expected, that at low volume levels, the audio sounded lacking in both Bass & Treble. Turning on LOUDNESS, made it sound so much better, and much more pleasing to listen to, without overdoing the Bass or Treble.

Then with the Loudness OFF, I turned up the volume, and that low volume "Lacking" audio, sounded to me (ears/brain) and become a lot brighter at the higher volume, and similar in tonal quality to what it sounded like at low Volumes, with Loudness ON. ( AS EXPECTED)

But then at High volume, when I turned Loudness ON , I could not hear any difference (which surprised me ). It did not become EXTRA BRIGHT !!!

I tried lots of different music, and toggled Loudness ON/OFF without looking at the display to Visually see if it was on or Off, and I could never hear any difference at high volume levels.

Is this to be expected with a decent Loudness control ?
It sounds optimum to me, unlike whatever the Honda Unit is doing.
 
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The testing I did found, like you did, that there was no difference above 200Hz at different volume levels. But I did find that there is actually a gain in volume below 100Hz relative to the rest of the music as you turn the volume down. Nothing happens as you go down from volume 40 to 29, but below 29 there starts to be a difference, and below 20 the differences get bigger.
vol-40-29.png
vol-29-20.png
vol-20-15.png

What are you actually measuring ?

Voltage output from a given Speaker Channel, or the actual sound within the car, (with a calibrated Microphone,) listening to all the speakers from the driver's had position) ??

In particular, what is the source of the SUB frequencies, that your graph shows does NOT vary in the same with Volume control level, compared with higher frequencies. ?
 

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What are you actually measuring ?

Voltage output from a given Speaker Channel, or the actual sound within the car, (with a calibrated Microphone,) listening to all the speakers from the driver's had position) ??

In particular, what is the source of the SUB frequencies, that your graph shows does NOT vary in the same with Volume control level, compared with higher frequencies. ?
This was measuring the voltage output of one of the front midrange channels. I unplugged one of the front door speakers and ran those wires into a voltage divider circuit to step the voltage down to a safe level for my equipment, and then ran that into the line input on a USB sound card hooked to my laptop. I used the free program Room EQ Wizard to read what the sound card was receiving while playing a pink noise .WAV file through the headunit.

You can see there that low frequencies and high frequencies are cut off, since this is the mid-range channel. I believe the 10-speaker system sub channel has the same changes in bass depending on volume, though.
 
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Thanks !!! and I already have Room EQ Wizard !!

I had incorrectly assume that using Pink Noise would not give very good results, so I was locked into the Frequency Sweep method, that requires the sound source to come from the PC, and get into the HU somehow..

Your results indicate that the Pink Noise source is more than adequate .. GREAT !!!

Well done in getting such good results with a USB sound card,

Have you tried using your method and placing the Mic where the driver's head is, and seeing what the sound frequency response is like in the car, with all the speakers.. ?
ie Listening to the Audio, as opposed to Measuring a given Speaker's Voltage.
 
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You can see there that low frequencies and high frequencies are cut off, since this is the mid-range channel. I believe the 10-speaker system sub channel has the same changes in bass depending on volume, though.
Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System 141903


Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System Front-Right side


Our Plots of the Front Door speaker are very very similar.
Mine was taken with a Premium Audio system.. 10 speaker.
The difference in the Peaks are almost exactly the same DB differences, and occur at the same Frequencies,

Since they were obtained in quite different methods, it would imply that the the similar results are accurately depicting what is going on :)
 

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I had incorrectly assume that using Pink Noise would not give very good results, so I was locked into the Frequency Sweep method, that requires the sound source to come from the PC, and get into the HU somehow..

Your results indicate that the Pink Noise source is more than adequate .. GREAT !!!
Yeah, I was worried about that too. In my experience in other cars that do have an AUX input that allows sending a sweep in from the PC, I did find that it produced more accurate results than pink noise. The sweep produces a smoother signal, while the pink noise is more jagged and requires applying smoothing in REW. But, I do think it is close enough to be still be useful.

Have you tried using your method and placing the Mic where the driver's head is, and seeing what the sound frequency response is like in the car, with all the speakers.. ? ie Listening to the Audio, as opposed to Measuring a given Speaker's Voltage.
I didn't experiment with that too much since I knew I was going to be replacing the speakers regardless. The one thing I did find was that the factory sub output is not very accurate, and part of that is due to the rear deck resonating. I forget the frequency exactly, but somewhere around 45 or 50Hz, the rear deck starts resonating, so you get audio output from it as well as the sub and it causes a spike in volume relative to other low frequencies. I was actually able to measure an improvement in the bass accuracy by pressing as hard as I could on the rear deck from inside the trunk while measuring. So I think anyone keeping the factory sub, or replacing it with another sub in that location, could benefit from trying to brace the rear deck somehow to make it more rigid.
 


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Our Plots of the Front Door speaker are very very similar.
Mine was taken with a Premium Audio system.. 10 speaker.
The difference in the Peaks are almost exactly the same DB differences, and occur at the same Frequencies,

Since they were obtained in quite different methods, it would imply that the the similar results are accurately depicting what is going on :)
Yeah, that's really cool! I love independent confirmation like that that shows the measurement process was accurate. Mine was with the 10-speaker system as well. I'm curious to know the electrical output curve of the non-premium system, but have not seen where anyone has posted measurements of it.
 

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Guys!
Thank you for all the work you're doing and posting these plots. Seeing proof of where the bass output drop starts to occur is very helpful, especially if you're trying to configure something like the LC2i's AccuBass feature. It appears that the reduction starts around 15.
 
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Yeah, that's really cool! I love independent confirmation like that that shows the measurement process was accurate. Mine was with the 10-speaker system as well. I'm curious to know the electrical output curve of the non-premium system, but have not seen where anyone has posted measurements of it.

Our car is a SI, so I am mainly interested in the 10 speaker system, with the external Amp.

I picked up a used (totaled car) SI head unit + Amp on Ebay, and this is the one I am playing with.
They will be good as Spares, should the Units in the car fail/ or should I say, when they fail.

I also picked up 4 channel Honda head unit, the one with the 4 channel Amp in the Head unit.
To support the 10 channel unit, I got a used Instrument panel Harness .. the plugs for the head unit and other items are virtually Impossible to obtain, especially in low quantities, so it was far cheaper to get a used harness.

Unfortunately, the SI harness does not support the 4 channel Head unit... but I do have the crimp inserts, so I believe I can make it a universal harness, as far as the Head Units are concerned, by adding the 4 pairs of wires for the speakers.. looks like they use different pins on the HU socket, to other function on that plug for the Si.


So what I plan to do next is to try a measuring setup like you have, which should be a lot faster, as well as enable me to measure actual audio with a USB Calibrated mic, as recommended for use with that PC software.

I have got the speakers I plan to put in the Car, but 1st I want to mount them in some old Enclosures, and compare them with the Oem Honda ones.

The whole project is way out of control !! but it is fun figuring it out, and great that someone else is also doing measurement, and that our independent measurements are so similar. It was meant to be Winter Project, but summer is far approaching -- if it ever stops raining here on the East Coast !!
 
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Did my 1st SPEAKER test today ( thanks to Josby showing me a good way to measure the speakers)

Not sure now accurate the plots is, but it's a start, and at least it does show a difference between the Honda Oem Front side speaker, and an Orion Speaker, that some are upgrading to,

Speaker setup is a little crude. I just have the speakers resting on foam, and pointing straight up, towards a suspended Calibrated Mic.

Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System Honda-Orion-Front

Red = Honda Oem
Green = Orion

Remember
the above is the result of the Amps's Freq Response + That of the speaker.

Makes it a little difficult to see what the Updated speaker is really doing, but it does have a higher frequency (7 Khz) cut off than the Hinda Oem (4.5 Khz)

Both have a nasty DIP 10dB at about 1.2 kHz, that does not appear to be on the AMPs's Output.

There is a very marked difference in the Audio when listening to White Noise from the Honda Oem speaker & the Orion -- I suspect the higher frequency response of the Orion.

Honda Civic 10th gen 2018 Premium Audio System Front-Right side


This is just a first measurement, so I cannot put too much faith in it being that accurate-- I suspect the may be some measuring artifact creeping in, but at least there appears to be a MEASURABLE difference between the two speakers !!!
 

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Did my 1st SPEAKER test today ( thanks to Josby showing me a good way to measure the speakers)

Not sure now accurate the plots is, but it's a start, and at least it does show a difference between the Honda Oem Front side speaker, and an Orion Speaker, that some are upgrading to,

Speaker setup is a little crude. I just have the speakers resting on foam, and pointing straight up, towards a suspended Calibrated Mic.

Honda-Orion-Front.png

Red = Honda Oem
Green = Orion

Remember
the above is the result of the Amps's Freq Response + That of the speaker.

Makes it a little difficult to see what the Updated speaker is really doing, but it does have a higher frequency (7 Khz) cut off than the Hinda Oem (4.5 Khz)

Both have a nasty DIP 10dB at about 1.2 kHz, that does not appear to be on the AMPs's Output.

There is a very marked difference in the Audio when listening to White Noise from the Honda Oem speaker & the Orion -- I suspect the higher frequency response of the Orion.

Front-Right side.jpg


This is just a first measurement, so I cannot put too much faith in it being that accurate-- I suspect the may be some measuring artifact creeping in, but at least there appears to be a MEASURABLE difference between the two speakers !!!
I'm curious to see the results with the speakers mounted in some fashion ( enclosure, infinite baffle, door :D ). I think that would make any differences more significant
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