2018 Premium Audio System

[Nitroturtle]

Thanks .. If you were using the Lc2i, I am thinking feeding both Left & right into it, and then taking the output, and with a Resistor network, add the Lc2i output to the Honda Sub output, and feed that through to the new Sub amp.

In an Ideal world , your Mono Sub Map would have more than one mixing input , in which case, no need for the resistive adder, just a resistive attenuator to cut down the Honda sub output a little !!

I'll try to find those threads and see what they were coming up with.. sounds like they were on to a good solution.

80Hz sounds a lot better than 40Hz. Will the c-pillar speakers work for this?

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[SCOPESYS]

80Hz sounds a lot better than 40Hz. Will the c-pillar speakers work for this?

Yes 80Hz is a LOT better than 40 Hz -- double the bandwidth, and starting to get up into actual Music audio, as opposed to Earthquake shock waves.
160Hz may be even better !!

C-Pillar speakers -- I believe so ... Obviously not the Tweeters, and not the Front Center Speaker, but any of the side ones, as I assume all the side speakers are the same ?? Not seen your car, or it's speakers, but easily verified if you look up the Part numbers on any of the Online Honda parts websites.

Actually, from what I have seen, one problem is the SUB having too low a high end cut-off, and the side speakers getting too low a low end cut-off - so too much bass is being pushed into the smaller side speakers, that are really not up to that low frequency at high volume. Would be better if that cross over point was 80Hz (or even 160Hz) and not 40Hz !!!


If you are in a position to try it, just wire it with some exposed temporary wiring to satisfy yourself that this is the direction you want to go, before committing to a full hidden wire install.

Also, bear in mind that so far, all my measurements have just been with the AMP. No speakers involved. The speakers will be a BIG variable to what the soundscape in the car will end up being.

 

[SCOPESYS]

In a few of the old sub threads, they were taking the left or right and combining with the sub channel to get a more full bass bandwidth

OK .. found it .. Forum search did not help, but typing

"honda" "civic" lc2i

into Google, and the 1st thing that popped up was the CivicX Forum Topic with the posts in it !!

https://www.civicx.com/threads/for-...-for-a-subwoofer-on-10-speaker-systems.15845/

Confirms in Practice, what I have been saying in Theory

The only suggestion I would add to what the OP was doing, would be to add BOTH the LEFT and the RIGHT into say the Left Lci2 input, and the Sub output into the right input. Would need a few resistors to get the left & right MIXED and their levels balanced with the sub on the other input.
( + a couple of Pots, so it is easily "Tweeked" )

Note: WARNING: Do NOT connect Both the LEFT & Right speakers TOGETHER, into a single Lc12 port.....you will damage the AMP. The two amp outputs have to be fed through series resistors, to prevent the two outputs being connected directly together ..

Just using the left OR the Right, might miss out on some of the bass that was balanced OFF center in the stereo mix.

Will have to try that tomorrow Morning "Sunday" -- OH dear, I might have to miss Church

 

[SCOPESYS]

OK .. found it .. Forum search did not help, but typing

"honda" "civic" lc2i

into Google, and the 1st thing that popped up was the CivicX Forum Topic with the posts in it !!

https://www.civicx.com/threads/for-...-for-a-subwoofer-on-10-speaker-systems.15845/

From the above referenced post :-

From what I recall the front mids have a roll off at about 100-125 hz, and it is pretty gradual. Bass boost, adjustable preferably, can add the lost bass back if you go that route.

I say try it both ways and see witch you prefer. The rears, should not be used as input because Honda tuned them more as satellite speakers, they are highly filtered.

I guess that needs to be confirmed, because if it is true, using the FRONT side speakers will be far better than the REAR side speakers !!

 

[SCOPESYS]

At the moment I am ASSUMING they are the same (will be testing that next to confirm -
( you know what they say about ASSuming )

Two advantages of using the REAR speakers as the source to the Lci2 would be.:-

(1) Close to trunk, where you probably have the Lci2 and the amp for the sub.

(2) Assuming, your primary concern is for sound delivered to the Driver & Front Seat Passenger, you can vary what is fed to the Lc2I's left & right inputs, and the resulting filtered Sub Output level to some extent by varying the amount of the balance you transfer to the rear. Obviously having the optional KLc2I's remote, adds even more flexibility.

I should NOT assume !!!

It is difficult to believe that this is correct !!!

Why / How can the Rear be so much lower than the Front ??
And a different Response shape as well .. less Bass at the Back.

Needs investigating ....

The people sitting in the Back are closer to the SUB, so they get that Bass more, but even so, they are missing so much of the Mid frequency bass, it does not make sense.
Maybe as well, the AMPS are different for different car, -- ie Not all Premium Audio Amps are the same, which might explain their different part numbers... ?

 

[86salmon]

I should NOT assume !!!

It is difficult to believe that this is correct !!!

Why / How can the Rear be so much lower than the Front ??
And a different Response shape as well .. less Bass at the Back.

Needs investigating ....

The people sitting in the Back are closer to the SUB, so they get that Bass more, but even so, they are missing so much of the Mid frequency bass, it does not make sense.
Maybe as well, the AMPS are different for different car, -- ie Not all Premium Audio Amps are the same, which might explain their different part numbers... ?

This is possibly for front staging purposes. It reminds me of what Bose tries to accomplish with electronic processing and cheap speakers

As far as needing both channels for sub input goes, low bass is extremely difficult for our ears to track directionally, hence the practice of bridging to mono for the power gains (feeling bass in stereo is pretty cool though). Bridging probably isn't the best idea with these amplifiers though.

Using the left and the sub is simple and ones ears would likely not notice the lack of the right

I can't wait to see what the speakers can handle once you get your hands on them

 

[cameljockey1]

I did buy the LC but have not picked it up yet. My set up is going to be 12inch sub and amp with lc. I was going to tap the factory sub wires to the lc and not have the factory sup connected. Or option 2, tap the left rear or right rear (one speaker only) speaker wires to the LC. Or option 3, tap left rear and right rear speakers to the LC? Which would work the best? Your research is great but i am not speaker and wire savvy or sound savvy. Just want some nice bass in the car. It is sad how the subwoofer is so damn weak or maybe not tuned right. My wife's ex-t sounds better than my car.

 

[SCOPESYS]

This is possibly for front staging purposes. It reminds me of what Bose tries to accomplish with electronic processing and cheap speakers

As far as needing both channels for sub input goes, low bass is extremely difficult for our ears to track directionally, hence the practice of bridging to mono for the power gains in 3 way setups (feeling bass in stereo is pretty cool though). Bridging probably isn't the best idea with these amplifiers though.

Using the left and the sub is simple and ones ears would likely not notice the lack of the right

I can't wait to see what the speakers can handle once you get your hands on them

Appreciate the feedback and your knowledge.

Ref: "As far as needing both channels for sub input goes"

I basically agree, but I do not know for sure how recording studios deal will low Bass.

Do they split it equally between Left & Right to be able to get higher non-directional volume, or do they place it in the stereo soundscape, so that different instruments appear to be in different spaces. I can imagine them feeding the low fundamentals to both sides (equally), and then the higher harmonics to wherever in the stereo soundscape they want the sound to appear to come from.

I realize that "keeping it simple" is good, but since there is no individual independent gains on the Lc2i for the left and right inputs, ideally, there need to be a small resistor/potentiometer circuit added, so that the relative gains of SUB, and "say FRONT Left" can be adjusted for an initial Flat response, which can later be changed with the head units controls.

I think it pretty clear, that there is a definite advantage of using the FRONT side speakers as the add-in Bass feed to the LCi2 and not the REAR.

So one will have to run a pair of wires from those speakers, and the easiest place to pick up (splice into ) both side and sub, is from the location of the Amp. So one may as well also pick up the other side front channel, and run 6 wires as opposed to 4.

Note: These do NOT have to be heavy gauge wire,(they are not driving 4ohm or 2 ohm loads !) Lighter gauge twisted pairs would be ideal, so 3 twisted pairs + maybe a few spare for hardware control purposes etc (ie a 5 twisted pair cable). Combining the left and right at the Lci2 end is just a couple of resistors, part of the Left & Right input gain resistor network.
Once designed, building is easy, (small Plastic "Project Box") and adds the flexibility of a lot of control over the SUB bass input to the the new High Power Sub Amp. (

Yes, excited to see/hear what this sounds like on the Honda Oem speakers.

Currently, I am evaluating any hearing of Audio, with some mid size Speakers..
Got some old 20 year old stereo speakers in heavy cabinets from Goodwill, and replaced the speakers with new, Mid price range speakers, similar to one one might upgrade the car to.

Being in decent enclosure, they will probably sound better than the same speakers, mounted in a Honda door !!

The 12" test SUB has plenty of cone movement, but it's currently more Felt than Heard, when connected to the oem Honda setup, which is the basic Problem !!

From initial evaluation, obviously the Honda SUB speaker needs upgrading, but there is probably a major benefit in upgrading the Front Left & Right, to be able to hand those higher Bass frequencies, that currently the Honda speakers are probably struggling with.
In the Si, the CENTER speaker is very dominant, so a decent speaker upgrade there would offer improvement as well.

Also, I am still not 100 convinced where all this Honda Frequency filtering is taking place.

The Head Unit, the AMP's input, or the Amps output power stage. ? or a mixed up combination of all 3 !!

I am "Hoping" that the Amp is just sending stereos audio over a broad band frequency Stereo S/PDFIF link.and that all the splitting up into Speaker Channels with different Frequency responses is being done in the AMP. (in the analogue domain, which would be possible to mod !!)

BTW: All the Lc2i filtering is done in the Analogue domain, with Op amp filters .. also should be easy to mod to change their cut-offs.. if needed.

If that digital link is an Industry standard, and not a Honda/Mitsubishi priority format, that would also open up some other cool possibilities.

So on my ever increasing list, is to check out the S/PDIF link (as well as the serial control link)

 

[SCOPESYS]

I did buy the LC but have not picked it up yet. My set up is going to be 12inch sub and amp with lc. I was going to tap the factory sub wires to the lc and not have the factory sup connected. Or option 2, tap the left rear or right rear (one speaker only) speaker wires to the LC. Or option 3, tap left rear and right rear speakers to the LC? Which would work the best? Your research is great but i am not speaker and wire savvy or sound savvy. Just want some nice bass in the car. It is sad how the subwoofer is so damn weak or maybe not tuned right. My wife's ex-t sounds better than my car.

yes.. I think your wife's EX-T car has the standard 8 speaker system, while you have the 10 speaker PREMIUM AUDIO !@!
GO FIGURE !!!


Also, I am beginning to think that not all 10 channel / 12 Channel Amps are created equal, and with their different part numbers, they may be actually Matched (or Mismatched) to particular civic model's speakers and layouts ???

You might want to hold off a week or two, before deciding how to actually wire.
If you cannot wait, I would suggest running a 5 pair (Twisted pair) cable from the AMP (passenger foot well), to where you are going to put your Lci2 and Power amp (Trunk space ?). That way, you have the flexibility to try out different combinations.
You will also have to run a heavy Gauge +12v line for your Amp's Power (and the Lci2).
many have dione this, plenty of info in the forum, and on Google / Youtuibe

Currently, I would recommend FRONT Left to the Left input of the Lci2, and SUB to the Right inputs of the Lci2, but reserve the option to combine both Left & right front speaker signals to Lci2 left, and sub to the right.

The difficult part is running the wires, and getting access to mount any new speakers.
How to wire it up would be easy to follow with some good instructions / yioutube video.

 

[Nitroturtle]

Currently, I would recommend FRONT Left to the Left input of the Lci2, and SUB to the Right inputs of the Lci2, but reserve the option to combine both Left & right front speaker signals to Lci2 left, and sub to the right.

The difficult part is running the wires, and getting access to mount any new speakers.
How to wire it up would be easy to follow with some good instructions / yioutube video.

I'm going to be trying exactly this today. I already have the amp and LCi2 wired up, with the LCi2 being fed from only the stock sub output currently with a jumper wire to the second channel. I just need to run wires for the front (purple/grey down in the passenger kick panel, if I'm not mistaken) and wire those into the LCi2 instead of the jumper wires from the sub output. If I get it all working today, I'll report back with my thoughts on the difference. Currently, I'm not happy at all with the sound, as it's far too boomy with no punchy bass at all.

 

[MrWaYne]

It is difficult to believe that this is correct !!!

Why / How can the Rear be so much lower than the Front ??
And a different Response shape as well .. less Bass at the Back.

thanks for investigating!
i also noticed, when using the fader slider and turning off the front system, the system lacks bass even more.
rear speakers are clearly "weaker" sounding regarding bass (i did sit on the back, for testing).

i'll be using the front signal then, once i get my amp/sub.

 

[AyeVeeN]

Made an account just to post to this thread but quick question. Are you feeding the signal through the head unit or did you actually take out whatever amplifiers Honda uses and are feeding the signal directly into and through the amplifier? The rest of the post will be assuming the former case.

Also note that the filters are likely digital since DSP is significantly cheaper than analog filters (especially with somewhat complex responses as these, and with it being a modern tech/non-luxury company I.e. cost savings is everything).

If you're measuring at max volume, then you may be invoking the compressors, limiters, and loudness compensation they have in place. It is pretty likely that the EQ changes depending on the volume I.e. loudness compensation. A more normal listening level would correspond to what we actually hear still. For reference (and I may be on the lower end of the spectrum), I listen at volumes 10-12. I agree that it still sounds like shit though. Much too tinny. Just haven't bothered to take an AP unit through security to measure the system myself since it's a pain to.

Generally, not recommended to crossover above 80Hz unless you want to actually hear the bass coming from behind you. Also getting into the region where phase response of the speakers themselves (+ phase response of filters) matter since if the sub plays higher than the mids' low-pass filter, then you can get both constructive and deconstructive interference very easily depending on the phase response of the drivers+filters. Phase still matters at the crossover but I'm assuming they at least did that right (asides from using 2nd order butters).


On the.. bright side, Honda seemed to lower the dynamic range of the entire system by allowing for -20dB in the mid-bass just so they could get +20dB at 40Hz in the midrange drivers when the sub should easily be able to reproduce that.

 

[Royalz_2o9]

My touring sedan uses optical out from the head unit to the amp, i then tapped LC2i into the left front speaker and sub wires and didn't like the responsiveness, definitely felt like something was missing. I replaced the sub Input for the right front speaker and quality improved significantly.

 

[SCOPESYS]

Made an account just to post to this thread but quick question. Are you feeding the signal through the head unit or did you actually take out whatever amplifiers Honda uses and are feeding the signal directly into and through the amplifier? The rest of the post will be assuming the former case.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your insight into this topic.

At this time, I am feeding the Audio from an Android Function Generator App, so the sine waves I am using are digitally generated. The audio is processed in the head unit, passed to the External Honda Amp (Premium System) by a serial Coax link, and then I believe , further processed in the amp, to drive the 10 speakers.
(I have a 10 speaker system, not the 12)

Up till now, I have been testing and measuring at Max Unclipped output levels, as this is the extreme where most complaints are happening, about the sound quality.

I use the Android Function Genrator app to produce the tone, and then I am measuring the output of the amp, feeding 4 ohm restive loads, with a scope for monitoring the waveform for clipping, and a true RMS digital meter, that I while quite flat from 5hz to 20Khz, I have calibrated, and use that calibration to correct the readings. Its out uncalibrated by only 5% low at 5 Hz.. not a big deal really.

I take digital meter reading from 5 Hz to 20 kHz, 10 per decade on a log scale, and then put it into Microsoft Excel to turn the output levels into db, add meter calibration and plot. The resulting graphs I then export to Photoshop, and add whatever extra graphics I want.

Also note that the filters are likely digital since DSP is significantly cheaper than analog filters (especially with somewhat complex responses as these, and with it being a modern tech/non-luxury company I.e. cost savings is everything).

One would assume so, but at least in the AMP, there appears to also be some Analogue Filtering. The Lci2 that so many are using, is defiantly "Analogue Filtering".

If you're measuring at max volume, then you may be invoking the compressors, limiters, and loudness compensation they have in place. It is pretty likely that the EQ changes depending on the volume I.e. loudness compensation. A more normal listening level would correspond to what we actually hear still. For reference (and I may be on the lower end of the spectrum), I listen at volumes 10-12. I agree that it still sounds like shit though. Much too tinny. Just haven't bothered to take an AP unit through security to measure the system myself since it's a pain to.

Up till now, I have been testing and measuring at Max Unclipped output levels, as this is the extreme where most complaints are happening, about the sound quality.
You are correct about possible intentional compression, and I plan to do some further plots for each Audio Channel, at differing gains, to explore that effect.

Generally, not recommended to crossover above 80Hz unless you want to actually hear the bass coming from behind you.

I think many, Including me, want to hear more Bass AUDIO, and if those Bass Fundamental Frequencies come form behind, that is a compromise. And directional awareness of those bass instruments will be more noticeable in their Harmonics, that the Left & Right door speakers "should" be able to handle.
They do however, seem to struggle with the 40Hz - 100Hz at any volume, which, for the car, might be better to have those frequencies handled by the Sub, and take the strain off the Door Speakers.
The Door speakers certainly can do with some significant upgrade from the Minimal one fitted by Honda.

Also getting into the region where phase response of the speakers themselves (+ phase response of filters) matter since if the sub plays higher than the mids' low-pass filter, then you can get both constructive and deconstructive interference very easily depending on the phase response of the drivers+filters. Phase still matters at the crossover but I'm assuming they at least did that right (asides from using 2nd order butters).

Not yet got into the actual speakers .. that's another whole can of worms.
I do plan to do some measurements in the Car, and have a USB Calibrated Mic and the software to at least measure what is going on, even if I do not have fitted the DSP to do any non oem correction.

Butterworth Filters -- OMG ,, that brings back memories of "Electric Circuits Classes" at university, and calculating multi stage Butterworth filters, and working out the values with a slide rule. ( That dates me !!.)

Have NEVER used any of that since then, so this might be interesting, especially if the LCi2 is using them in their analogue filters, I have a feeling I will try Modding my Lci2 to increase that High End Sub cuttoff from 80hz to something higher.

On the.. bright side, Honda seemed to lower the dynamic range of the entire system by allowing for -20dB in the mid-bass just so they could get +20dB at 40Hz in the midrange drivers when the sub should easily be able to reproduce that.

Agreed

What started out a a few hour attempt to getting some quantitative idea of what the Honda's Premium system's soundscape is, has grown quickly into a monster project, but hopefully, with inputs and suggestions form members of this forum, we might come up with an optimal; solution to improve the "Premium Sound Systems" -- that some are saying, sounds worse that the non-premium one !!

Since I already had the test head Unit and Amp set up as a test bed in the shop for another "Head Unit software" project, the adding of this Audio side was not too difficult -- but it is mushrooming into a major time "Black Hole"

 

[SCOPESYS]

My touring sedan uses optical out from the head unit to the amp, i then tapped LC2i into the left front speaker and sub wires and didn't like the responsiveness, definitely felt like something was missing. I replaced the sub Input for the right front speaker and quality improved significantly.

Interesting
So effectively you initially had 10hz - 80Hz gong to the sub amp, (Sub + left) and now you have cut out all that Non-Audible sound in the 10-40Hz range, and just have 40-80hz ( Lc2i's filtered Front Left & Right) going to the sub,

That would be my personal preference as well, but some like the BOOM and the vibration, so each to their own. Nice if there is a choice.

FYI: There is a Audio test diagnostic, deep down in the Hidden Honda head unit menu, that allows you to send a 30hz ? Test Tone just to just the Sub, with all the other speakers OFF.
Crank the volume up, and you can "detect" that it's there, but it is not that loud, even at max volume.

But the oem Honda Sub speaker is a PATHETIC excuse for a sub speaker !!!

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