2018 Premium Audio System

[SCOPESYS]

Really upset to find that the SI's DSP cannot be controlled !!! (or in any PREMIUM System !!) At leat, nobody has foud a way and is telling about it !!

However, looks like a warm weekend is approaching .. 70's !!!

Maybe its time to do some actual Sound Measurements in the Car, and start attacking the issue from the other end ... the SOUND in the Car, rather than the performance of the AMP.

After all, its the SOUND that really matters, not how FLAT the amps response it .

The whole HU/AMP inter-connection is proving to be far more complex than I ever imagined !! (Thank you Honda !!)
Maybe just some BRUTE FORCE LC networks in the speaker leads might be a simpler solution to help counteract the apparently Crazy DSP settings .

It's all an interesting exercise, but to be honest, I actually find the Premium Audio to be "acceptable" in the SI Coupe, for the type of music, and volume levels that I chose to play listen at.

The main reason I even embarked on this was to try to see what everyone else was complaining about.

Learned a lot, much of which I am beginning to wish I did not know... sometimes "Ignorance can be Bliss"

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[SCOPESYS]

Did a quick IN Car Audio Frequency Response test yesterday.

AMAZINGLY, initial measurements seem to show that the current DSP processing is correcting the output for the budget OEM speakers, so that while the actual voltages responses are not flat, the end effective AUDIO response within the car has a significantly flatter response from 100Hz to 10 kHz.,

While I had hoped that would be the case, I was really surprised to see it -- almost too good to be true !!!

Then I got distracted, which is why I do not have plots to share.

I went into the Honda Audio diagnostic screen in the car, and ran the Speaker tests.

This puts an appropriate fixed frequency tone, of adjustable volume into either a selected speaker, or all the speakers ..( and when it feed the SUB, it is a very Loud 100Hz, and it rattles the hell out of the back.)
This would be the thing to run, when trying to track down rattles and vibration of the Sub !!!


The the following struck me :-

On the Premium system (The one I was testing in the Si), DSP-FLat does not work.
Ie the Syscon Control Module seems not able to talk to and control the DSP in the AMP over the RS422 link, and alter the responses for the individual speakers .. ie select DSP-Flat

BUT

The Audio Diagnostic Module can turn ON/OFF speakers at will, to do its test, and is probably doing so via the AMPs DSP.
And these control are beings sent over the dedicated RS422 link between the Head Unit ad the Amp.

(So far, I have not found any functions, or tests that FAIL if the C_Bus connection to the Amp is disconnected)

So, assuming both DSP-Flat and Audio Diagnostic are controlling the DSP in the AMP, maybe the key to getting the DSP-Flat to work on the Premium Systems is Updating/hacking/fixing the SysCom control module -- very little chance of that, or in Honda doing it now - way to late in the Head Units Life cycle, and besides, users are not meant to access this stuff in any case.

I can imagine Honda creating the Updated Premium system, updating the Audio TEST Diagnostic, but not bothering to (or misssing) updating the SysCom control for DSP-Flat control or LOUNDNESS Control

Maybe a more realistic approach would be to see if it could be done directly over the RS422 link... which means the 1st step is to decode the Rs422 communications .. not too difficult if there is a reason to do so.
OR
And this would be the ideal .. IF any of the Premium Systems have a version of SYSCOM that does control the DSP in the AMp with the DSP-Flat menu, the possibility of installing that and then being able use DSP-FLAT i other Premium systems.

So bottom line, where this is all heading.

Given : DSP-Flat does not work on the SI's Syscom tool.

Are there any other Premium Audio Civic (or Accord) models where Syscom DOES control the DSP, and where DSP-Flat works ??

Probably not, but if there are, then maybe that syscom module could be used in the cars like the SI to get the dsp-flat functionality. (possible to do when the system is Honda Hacked)

OMG-- Now we are way way way down the Rabbit Hole !!!

Probably there is some Engineer at Honda reading this and rolling on the floor laughing, thinking, OH Boy, WRONG RABBIT HOLE !!!

 

[SCOPESYS]

No progress with this project for past 2 weeks.

Got sidetracked with some Honda A/C Whistling issues, and needed a break from the car Audio in any case.

Did manage to get a Sound Spectrum recorded from withing the car, with stock system, and have since upgraded the center amp, so will make another recording and then post the two for comparison.

To me, it sound a lot better, the sound is more balanced, and now sound like it is coming from all around me, as opposed to mainly coming from a shrill center speaker.

Bass balance & center balance is a lot better, the same music that I play from a USB drive, now sounds so much fuller & richer.
I think the new center seake is smoother, but requires more power, so when the volume is turned up, now both Center & side speakers are better matched at the occupants head locations, and thus the balance is better, with more bass audible from the door speakers.

Once they are upgraded, and some decent sound proofing placed in the doors, it should should even better.

It may be than then, some sort of volume control (fixed probably) may be needed for the center speaker, so that it's level can be matched to the new side speakers ... a independent Center Volume control is something that is sadly missing from the Premium System



What is cool, is that I do not do audio work for a living, but last week we got a major customer with a project that requires their equipment gets tested, and it is basically an audio frequency filtering system for medical research, and the ideal; way to test it is with the same techniques and programs I have been using to test the Honda head Unit's audio system -- so unlike the Personal Honda project, this is a project that pays !!

 

[86salmon]

It may be than then, some sort of volume control (fixed probably) may be needed for the center speaker, so that it's level can be matched to the new side speakers ... a independent Center Volume control is something that is sadly missing from the Premium System

Is this with and without dts activated?

New door speakers will definitely further enhance your experience.

What is cool, is that I do not do audio work for a living, but last week we got a major customer with a project that requires their equipment gets tested, and it is basically an audio frequency filtering system for medical research, and the ideal; way to test it is with the same techniques and programs I have been using to test the Honda head Unit's audio system -- so unlike the Personal Honda project, this is a project that pays !!

That's effin awesome!

 

[SCOPESYS]

Is this with and without dts activated?

New door speakers will definitely further enhance your experience.



That's effin awesome!

DTS is a "Strange" thing ( at least to me) on the Honda's Audio System.

There is a definite change in sound, but I keep flip-flopping back and forth between liking it on or off.

When it is on, there is a large Concert hall effect ( I guess a large THEATER effect), and the sound gets a slight echo / reverb,

When I first turn it on it sound different, and maybe better -- but if after time I turn it off, it also sounds better. !! Go figure..
Maybe it is strongly dependent of the actual track that is being played ...

As well as the DTS on/off, i really wish there was both a LOUDNESS on/off and a DSP ON/FLAT control ... but Honda obviously wanted to DUMB IT down ... real DUMB !!

 

[SCOPESYS]

New door speakers will definitely further enhance your experience.

I keep putting that off

I want to do the Sound Insulation of the doors at the same time, and have not yet decided on what material to use.
Also, it's going to be a lot more pleasant doing that work when it gets a little warmer .. still like winter here in Maryland !!!

 

[86salmon]

DTS is a "Strange" thing ( at least to me) on the Honda's Audio System.

There is a definite change in sound, but I keep flip-flopping back and forth between liking it on or off.

When it is on, there is a large Concert hall effect ( I guess a large THEATER effect), and the sound gets a slight echo / reverb,

When I first turn it on it sound different, and maybe better -- but if after time I turn it off, it also sounds better. !! Go figure..
Maybe it is strongly dependent of the actual track that is being played ...

As well as the DTS on/off, i really wish there was both a LOUDNESS on/off and a DSP ON/FLAT control ... but Honda obviously wanted to DUMB IT down ... real DUMB !!

DTS seems to really enhance the HD radio channels. It sounds a little over processed to me with other sources

Yes!!! To loudness and flat options

 

[SCOPESYS]

DTS seems to really enhance the HD radio channels. It sounds a little over processed to me with other sources

Yes!!! To loudness and flat options

If unit is Honda Hacked, it would be possible to add a DSP 0n/off and a Loudness 0n/off button, in a modified version of DSP-Flat.apk ... but only on the non Premium system .. at least until someone figures out how to control those functions on a Premium System.

 

[JohnnyL]

DTS is a "Strange" thing ( at least to me) on the Honda's Audio System.

There is a definite change in sound, but I keep flip-flopping back and forth between liking it on or off.

When it is on, there is a large Concert hall effect ( I guess a large THEATER effect), and the sound gets a slight echo / reverb,

When I first turn it on it sound different, and maybe better -- but if after time I turn it off, it also sounds better. !! Go figure..
Maybe it is strongly dependent of the actual track that is being played ...

As well as the DTS on/off, i really wish there was both a LOUDNESS on/off and a DSP ON/FLAT control ... but Honda obviously wanted to DUMB IT down ... real DUMB !!

I agree. At times it does sound better with DTS on. But for the most part I like it better off. Seems to be more dynamic and a bit louder with it off.

 

[19redsi]

Scopesys - thank you for all of the work you and the others have done trying to tease apart the civic "premium" audio system. I've read through it a couple of times, but it seems like there's really two options:

1. Use a LOC to add a real amp/sub, but this appears to still have some issues regarding the DSP manipulation by the stock system. It sounds like the car will still be lacking in terms of a decent sound (especially if the DSP affects mid/high frequencies, and the LC2i isn't modded to extend bass frequencies +80 Hz). Is this true in your opinion?

2. Put in a new quality set of component speakers along with sound deadening. This should help with bass frequencies, as road noise drowns them out. It seems like going this route, one may be happy w/o a LOC/sub combo, but just decent speakers.

Perhaps the "best" route is simply to do both 1 & 2, but at this point, I don't have that much spare money laying around (you know, the whole buying a car thing). What are the general thoughts on the stock speakers + LOC/sub vs new components + sound deadening on front doors?

 

[SCOPESYS]

Scopesys - thank you for all of the work you and the others have done trying to tease apart the civic "premium" audio system. I've read through it a couple of times, but it seems like there's really two options:

1. Use a LOC to add a real amp/sub, but this appears to still have some issues regarding the DSP manipulation by the stock system. It sounds like the car will still be lacking in terms of a decent sound (especially if the DSP affects mid/high frequencies, and the LC2i isn't modded to extend bass frequencies +80 Hz). Is this true in your opinion?

2. Put in a new quality set of component speakers along with sound deadening. This should help with bass frequencies, as road noise drowns them out. It seems like going this route, one may be happy w/o a LOC/sub combo, but just decent speakers.

Perhaps the "best" route is simply to do both 1 & 2, but at this point, I don't have that much spare money laying around (you know, the whole buying a car thing). What are the general thoughts on the stock speakers + LOC/sub vs new components + sound deadening on front doors?

I think you have the basic solutions figured out.

It's easy to get over obsessed with Frequency responses etc but at the end of the day, the same Level frequency responses form the AMP, can SOUND completely different according to the speakers you have selected.

I have a strong feeling that this may be the mistake Honda made, when programming their complex DSP system - not because I have any proof or evidence that this is what they did but rather looking at the results.

Reason:
If you look at the DSP processed AMP output (Voltages) , their combined frequency response if NOT flat, in fact it is has quite wide (10dB + ) swings.
But
If you feed the Honda Speakers, in the car, and measure the audio frequency response, with a decent calibrated Microphone, at the Drivers head Position, the audio Frequency response end up be remarkably FLAT !!!
So, once could imagine that they tweaked the DSP setting to give this flat response, making up for the RESPONSE deficiencies in the cheap OEM speakers.

The trouble is, it sound like CRAP to the human ear, one cause being, the cheap budget speakers Honda tried to optimize for,

I have the plot, (yet to post).

I then went on to replace the Center Speaker with a "better sounding" aftermarket speaker. This speaker has more Bass, and less harsh Mid and high, as well as being less sensitive - the lower sensitivity ending up being an advantage.

With the OEM center Speaker, it was really too loud, compared with the front door speakers...so it was the major source of sound, drowning out the side speakers.

With the less sensitive Center speaker, it is a far better balance, and now a more balanced sound comes from the 3 front speakers, stereo separation sounds better, and the Bass that is feed to the side speakers is louder (as one can turn the volume up without the center speaker blowing your ears off)

IN fact, the Bass is so string now, that I have found that the optimum 3 and Equalizer levels that I personally prefer is:

Bass : 25%
Mid :75%
High: 50%


SO PLENTY of bass now in reserve.


Yes, there is still very little that comes out of the SUB, but there is now plenty of Bass from the front side speakers, I personally, I do not what the heavy THUMPING from the sub, rocking my car, and those around it.

In addition, low frequency, heavy Bass from an overactive Sub in the confined space of a car, is the surest way to damage your hearing -- and then it's a vicious circle, need more bass as your hearing goes down the toilet.

I do plan to upgrade the front side speakers, and add plenty of sound deadening to the door compartment - having been advised by other that this made a considerable improvement to their systems, but as it is at the moment, it sound a lot better than OEM, just with the center speaker replaced.

 

[19redsi]

I then went on to replace the Center Speaker with a "better sounding" aftermarket speaker. This speaker has more Bass, and less harsh Mid and high, as well as being less sensitive - the lower sensitivity ending up being an advantage.

With the OEM center Speaker, it was really too loud, compared with the front door speakers...so it was the major source of sound, drowning out the side speakers.

With the less sensitive Center speaker, it is a far better balance, and now a more balanced sound comes from the 3 front speakers, stereo separation sounds better, and the Bass that is feed to the side speakers is louder (as one can turn the volume up without the center speaker blowing your ears off)

IN fact, the Bass is so string now, that I have found that the optimum 3 and Equalizer levels that I personally prefer is:

Bass : 25%
Mid :75%
High: 50%


SO PLENTY of bass now in reserve.


Yes, there is still very little that comes out of the SUB, but there is now plenty of Bass from the front side speakers, I personally, I do not what the heavy THUMPING from the sub, rocking my car, and those around it.

Oh my...not sure if I missed it or just ignored it, but I completely assumed the center speaker was for navigation voices or the DTS neural setting. I just assumed it was off otherwise. I ran out to my car and yeah...it is playing music. Crutchfield shows that it is a 3 1/2 " speaker. If it's producing a large portion of the sound, I can totally see why such a smaller/cheaper would affect sound - minimizing that should allow the front components to be brought forward more. You mentioned that less efficient speaker was a solution you used to decrease the overall volume from that speaker...what db sensitivity did you choose? Fosgate for example has some 85db 3 1/2".

*edit: saw your other post about the JL speakers/install. Looks like that's a common route and people seem to be happy!

 

[86salmon]

Oh my...not sure if I missed it or just ignored it, but I completely assumed the center speaker was for navigation voices or the DTS neural setting. I just assumed it was off otherwise. I ran out to my car and yeah...it is playing music. Crutchfield shows that it is a 3 1/2 " speaker. If it's producing a large portion of the sound, I can totally see why such a smaller/cheaper would affect sound - minimizing that should allow the front components to be brought forward more. You mentioned that less efficient speaker was a solution you used to decrease the overall volume from that speaker...what db sensitivity did you choose? Fosgate for example has some 85db 3 1/2".

American Bass SQ 3.5 with 85db sensitivity and a foam baffle has given me good results. The JL solution is a popular choice on the forum. I've seen others using Crutchfield's sound ordinance brand. Most anything will probably be better than the stock center speaker

 

[19redsi]

American Bass SQ 3.5 with 85db sensitivity and a foam baffle has given me good results. The JL solution is a popular choice on the forum. I've seen others using Crutchfield's sound ordinance brand. Most anything will probably be better than the stock center speaker

I figured that was a good bet, but you never know! Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[mvela]

Did a quick IN Car Audio Frequency Response test yesterday.

AMAZINGLY, initial measurements seem to show that the current DSP processing is correcting the output for the budget OEM speakers, so that while the actual voltages responses are not flat, the end effective AUDIO response within the car has a significantly flatter response from 100Hz to 10 kHz.,

While I had hoped that would be the case, I was really surprised to see it -- almost too good to be true !!!

Then I got distracted, which is why I do not have plots to share.

I went into the Honda Audio diagnostic screen in the car, and ran the Speaker tests.

This puts an appropriate fixed frequency tone, of adjustable volume into either a selected speaker, or all the speakers ..( and when it feed the SUB, it is a very Loud 100Hz, and it rattles the hell out of the back.)
This would be the thing to run, when trying to track down rattles and vibration of the Sub !!!


The the following struck me :-

On the Premium system (The one I was testing in the Si), DSP-FLat does not work.
Ie the Syscon Control Module seems not able to talk to and control the DSP in the AMP over the RS422 link, and alter the responses for the individual speakers .. ie select DSP-Flat

BUT

The Audio Diagnostic Module can turn ON/OFF speakers at will, to do its test, and is probably doing so via the AMPs DSP.
And these control are beings sent over the dedicated RS422 link between the Head Unit ad the Amp.

(So far, I have not found any functions, or tests that FAIL if the C_Bus connection to the Amp is disconnected)

So, assuming both DSP-Flat and Audio Diagnostic are controlling the DSP in the AMP, maybe the key to getting the DSP-Flat to work on the Premium Systems is Updating/hacking/fixing the SysCom control module -- very little chance of that, or in Honda doing it now - way to late in the Head Units Life cycle, and besides, users are not meant to access this stuff in any case.

I can imagine Honda creating the Updated Premium system, updating the Audio TEST Diagnostic, but not bothering to (or misssing) updating the SysCom control for DSP-Flat control or LOUNDNESS Control

Maybe a more realistic approach would be to see if it could be done directly over the RS422 link... which means the 1st step is to decode the Rs422 communications .. not too difficult if there is a reason to do so.
OR
And this would be the ideal .. IF any of the Premium Systems have a version of SYSCOM that does control the DSP in the AMp with the DSP-Flat menu, the possibility of installing that and then being able use DSP-FLAT i other Premium systems.

So bottom line, where this is all heading.

Given : DSP-Flat does not work on the SI's Syscom tool.

Are there any other Premium Audio Civic (or Accord) models where Syscom DOES control the DSP, and where DSP-Flat works ??

Probably not, but if there are, then maybe that syscom module could be used in the cars like the SI to get the dsp-flat functionality. (possible to do when the system is Honda Hacked)

OMG-- Now we are way way way down the Rabbit Hole !!!

Probably there is some Engineer at Honda reading this and rolling on the floor laughing, thinking, OH Boy, WRONG RABBIT HOLE !!!

I hear a lot of people who have the factory sub talk about this rattle issue. I don’t have a factory sub but do have two 10’s in my trunk. I had a bad rattle coming from the rear deck right where the factory sub would be, if I had one. I removed the back panel from the rear deck to pinpoint this rattle. It ended up being the the plastic panel was vibrating against the third brake light. So I had to put weather stripping between the light and the panel and problem solved!

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