2016 Civic 1.5L Turbo Surges at Highway Speeds (45–70 MPH) S.B. #16-028

PS3

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Threads
2
Messages
325
Reaction score
113
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic Touring
Country flag
As a mathematician, though not one specializing in anything remotely related, the timing of this fix makes me suspicious. I give even odds this doesn't really fix things or causes other problems.

Self-learning algorithms of this sort are either something you completely understand, or they behave quite unpredictably with the possibility that they are subject to unexpected feedback loops that lead to learning odd behaviors such as the surging.

If the mathematicians and engineers had understood the behavior of their system and gotten it right in the first place, and it was a programming error, one would expect the fix to have been found much earlier.

If the mathematicians and engineers really thought about the system and figured out how it was learning to surge and figured out how to tune the system so that it wouldn't surge, I would expect it to have taken a lot longer than 2 or 3 months.

So to me it seems like they vaguely guessed at what was going on, tried some tweaks almost randomly, put it on a few (first simulated then actual) cars, and tested if it came out better. I doubt they really understand the thing completely, so there is the possibility more changes are likely.

Then again, we still don't know after a few decades whether the Navier-Stokes equations allow for the possibility of water spontaneously exploding or not, so maybe not having a full understanding isn't such a big deal in practice.
All the real mathematicians I know never indulge in such wild speculation...
Sponsored

 

whaaaaa

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Threads
4
Messages
171
Reaction score
103
Location
NYC
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic EX-L, Black w/ Ivory interior
Country flag
As a mathematician, though not one specializing in anything remotely related, the timing of this fix makes me suspicious. I give even odds this doesn't really fix things or causes other problems.

Self-learning algorithms of this sort are either something you completely understand, or they behave quite unpredictably with the possibility that they are subject to unexpected feedback loops that lead to learning odd behaviors such as the surging.

If the mathematicians and engineers had understood the behavior of their system and gotten it right in the first place, and it was a programming error, one would expect the fix to have been found much earlier.

If the mathematicians and engineers really thought about the system and figured out how it was learning to surge and figured out how to tune the system so that it wouldn't surge, I would expect it to have taken a lot longer than 2 or 3 months.

So to me it seems like they vaguely guessed at what was going on, tried some tweaks almost randomly, put it on a few (first simulated then actual) cars, and tested if it came out better. I doubt they really understand the thing completely, so there is the possibility more changes are likely.

Then again, we still don't know after a few decades whether the Navier-Stokes equations allow for the possibility of water spontaneously exploding or not, so maybe not having a full understanding isn't such a big deal in practice.
My guess, spoken only from ample experience working alongside bug hunting software devs, and from giving Honda the benefit of the doubt that they are organized and competent if only due to paranoia about safety and liabilities, is that the learning algorithms are both understood and well documented. The surging behavior was unexpected, and likely required a large number of cars driving hundreds of miles in real world conditions before surfacing, but once they became aware and acknowledged the issue they were able to use their understanding to immediately zero in on the likely cause. The logic probably went something like, "Well if it's only occurring at highway speeds, and only occurring while maintaining steady speed at low throttle, then it's almost definitely this particular area of code right here." Then they probably took a few stabs at modifying lines of code in that area until they got it right, hopefully within a few attempts. I would further guess that the fix came down to just tweaking certain variables having to do with some kind of tolerance range, by either making it more strict or loosening it up, who knows.

If I remember correctly, the first reports we had that Honda had officially acknowledged the issue were only a month ago or less. Once coming up with the fix, the remaining weeks were certainly spent on as thorough QA testing as they could manage in their controlled environment, to at least make sure they didn't inadvertently introduce anything newly dangerous. Once satisfied, the update was released to dealers.

Honestly, I'm not surprised something like this came up, especially given the new platform, the new engine, and the new transmission. When coding a new project on this scale, devs and QA teams will work tirelessly to find all possible bugs and eventually come to a point where they're confident enough to release. However, once out the wild, the number of users and use-case variables grow by orders of magnitude, and there's simply no way to account for that in pre-release testing. This is the inherent risk in being an early adopter for any new generation technology of a certain complexity, whether it be a car, a phone, a computer, etc...
 

latexyankee

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Threads
13
Messages
96
Reaction score
8
Location
O-H-I-O
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic EX-T
So I've called my dealer twice now to attempt this update and they will not let me. They lookup my vin in the Honda database and it shows no open cases, recalls TSB etc...

I am experiencing the surge to a certain degree. I just bought the car a week ago so maybe it came from the factory with the latest update? I'm not sure what to do, I've tried to give them the TSB number but they just say if my car was affected it would show in their system. Anyone else having problems getting this done? They state most likely all vins were not affected even though the vin range says ALL on the TSB.

Help?
 

ICanLiftACivicUp

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2016
Threads
2
Messages
211
Reaction score
78
Location
St. Louis
Vehicle(s)
2016 Aegean Blue Civic Touring
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
So I've called my dealer twice now to attempt this update and they will not let me. They lookup my vin in the Honda database and it shows no open cases, recalls TSB etc...

I am experiencing the surge to a certain degree. I just bought the car a week ago so maybe it came from the factory with the latest update? I'm not sure what to do, I've tried to give them the TSB number but they just say if my car was affected it would show in their system. Anyone else having problems getting this done? They state most likely all vins were not affected even though the vin range says ALL on the TSB.

Help?
If you only bought the car a week ago, it would not have been updated. Your car was probably built at least in early February, and they wouldn't have had the update until Friday at the earliest. Try another dealer if there's one nearby.
 

whaaaaa

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Threads
4
Messages
171
Reaction score
103
Location
NYC
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic EX-L, Black w/ Ivory interior
Country flag
So I've called my dealer twice now to attempt this update and they will not let me. They lookup my vin in the Honda database and it shows no open cases, recalls TSB etc...

I am experiencing the surge to a certain degree. I just bought the car a week ago so maybe it came from the factory with the latest update? I'm not sure what to do, I've tried to give them the TSB number but they just say if my car was affected it would show in their system. Anyone else having problems getting this done? They state most likely all vins were not affected even though the vin range says ALL on the TSB.

Help?
Demand they do it anyway. It's your car, you're having a demonstrable issue, and you even have the TSB to reference. Go there in person if you have to, and refuse to leave until they take 10min to jam a usb in there and do the damn thing. Failing that, you can try calling Honda corporate, or try another dealership.
 


ReBoot

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Location
Oregon
Vehicle(s)
2016 Honda Civic Touring
Demand they do it anyway. It's your car, you're having a demonstrable issue, and you even have the TSB to reference. Go there in person if you have to, and refuse to leave until they take 10min to jam a usb in there and do the damn thing. Failing that, you can try calling Honda corporate, or try another dealership.
My dealer's service also wouldn't schedule the update since it didn't show up with my VIN. Another dealer is having me bring it in to check but they also sound skeptical but haven't refused. We likely know more about this then Honda dealers' staff...

BTW, I've had one surge.
 

latexyankee

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Threads
13
Messages
96
Reaction score
8
Location
O-H-I-O
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic EX-T
My dealer's service also wouldn't schedule the update since it didn't show up with my VIN. Another dealer is having me bring it in to check but they also sound skeptical but haven't refused. We likely know more about this then Honda dealers' staff...

BTW, I've had one surge.
Mmmm, it has only been a few days since the update was sent out. I think I'll wait another week and call back. If they still have no information I will just print out the TSB and bring it in demanding it be completed. I think I'm the only one that has asked about here locally. The problem is they dont listen to what I'm saying, they just say if there was an update available it would show in the system. I've tried to give them the TSB number for reference but they say it wouldn't matter because my vin shows no updates etcc...talking in circles.

It will be good to hear how others are faring with this update since this will be the first full week since honda released it. I'll keep you posted.
 

tcaudo

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
217
Reaction score
144
Location
new jersey
Vehicle(s)
2016 civic ex-t
So mine supposedly has the update installed but yet rpm's still slightly fluctuate. They want to keep my car for a few days to test it but i need my car. So yea good times
 

Khellendrose

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Threads
0
Messages
65
Reaction score
19
Location
Lynnwood, WA
Vehicle(s)
2016 Honda Civic Touring, 2016 Hyundai Sonata
I'm at my dealer right now for the update, I do have an open ticket on the surging. Fingers crossed
 

tcaudo

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
217
Reaction score
144
Location
new jersey
Vehicle(s)
2016 civic ex-t
Seems like honda doesn't know what theyre doing here. How could my car already have the update? The honda dealer had to download the software because they didnt even have it but yet my car that i bought back in december does? This doesn't make any sense
 


twelver

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
29
Reaction score
9
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
2006 Civic
My dealership says they only see SB 16-001 for my car. They can't do anything until it 028 shows up. I guess I need to wait a few weeks since this one is so new??
 

tcaudo

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
217
Reaction score
144
Location
new jersey
Vehicle(s)
2016 civic ex-t
My dealership says they only see SB 16-001 for my car. They can't do anything until it 028 shows up. I guess I need to wait a few weeks since this one is so new??
None of this makes any sense. Something is wrong here
 

tcaudo

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
217
Reaction score
144
Location
new jersey
Vehicle(s)
2016 civic ex-t
They said 16-001 is the only applicable SB for my car. They have no record of 16-028 :(
They said mine was already updated. How the hell is that possible? They just released the update last week
Sponsored

 


 


Top