12 Second 1/4 Mile time - Street Tires Is it Doable?

  1. Myx

    Myx Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Posts:
    1,234
    Thanked:
    938
    Location:
    Delaware
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
    #1 Myx, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
    As the title states. A 12.9 second 1/4 mile on street tires on the Civic.....can it be done? If so, what would it take to get it there? I see the Honda Accords are knocking off high 12's when they switch to a Type R turbo and flex fuel. What would it take to get it done on the Civic? Be it Base model, Si or Type R. Do you think it's all power to weight ratio? Grip? Gearing? 60ft time? Weather (Humidity/Air Density)? Suspension setup? A combination of all?

    Asking anyone from the gear heads to the engineers. My current focus is to get to 13.0-13.1 first (If possible). I have a plan of action but am always open to suggestions. So asking...Thanks!

    This is all in good fun and a hobby of mine. Don't get too bent out of shape on this one. :cool:
    BTW: I can't use E30....none in my area.

    Been focusing (A LOT) on PRLs [email protected] 1/4 mile run (with E30 and street tires) and Ososik's [email protected] 1/4 mile run (On Drag Slicks and E85). I know I'm asking a lot. Trying to use brains (Technology/Thinking) over brawn (Raw HP/TQ). :crazy::drive:

    Ososik.jpg

    PRL vs Myx.jpg
     
    Remm and 2tone thanked this.
  2. CrippleRipple

    CrippleRipple Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Posts:
    487
    Thanked:
    267
    Location:
    Kansas
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic Si (LSM) & 2018 Honda Accord Sport 2.0T (CBP)
    You are at the edge bro, seriously those times are all you! Very tough at the track as I'm sure you know!
    I'll send some of your slips over to a friend who is an Amateur bracket racer, see if he has any tips.

    You'd run with my Accord 2.0T w/ a Stage 2 tune and PRL Stage 1 Intake all day man! Heck you'd probably beat me!

    Unfortunately, you cannot even have discussions like this over on the Drive Accord forums, they cut & edit almost every post.
    There is no free speech over there and people were banned for evening mentioning racing even on legit track....It's really really weird.
    I just called them out on it this morning and I was banned for a Month, my post has already been removed & then they removed the post above it which was very informative on the difference between the 1.5T vs. 2.0T engine.
    Why even have a performance section honestly? People's questions just go unanswered and your posts just disappear if the mod is having a bad day.......even the vendors stay away! lol

    A few other forums just have nada........It's a shame really, this is a great car! Just really hard to find people sharing info on their Accord 2.0T mods/times/etc.....

    I'd be proud especially being you track it like you would drive it on the street, exactly the way it should be. You didn't strip your interior, you didn't put slicks on it & so on.
    You have a crazy potent sleeper car man!
     
    Myx thanked this.
  3. TypeSiR

    TypeSiR Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Posts:
    924
    Thanked:
    603
    Occupation:
    Car Driver
    Location:
    SoCal
    Car(s):
    1.5T Civic, CTR, MX5
    What do you have in mind? Federal RS RR on the cheap or go all out with Michelin PS4S? I’m sure they’ll work better once heated up. You can test them for us? :)
     
    Myx and krees thanked this.
  4. dallasjhawk

    dallasjhawk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Posts:
    3,900
    Thanked:
    3,799
    Location:
    Arlington, TX
    Car(s):
    2016 Civic EX-T, 2004 Acura TSX
    If I'm thinking correctly the 6 or so cars I know that have gone 12.9 or faster all used a drag tire of some sort.
     
    Myx thanked this.
  5. OP
    OP
    Myx

    Myx Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Posts:
    1,234
    Thanked:
    938
    Location:
    Delaware
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
    #5 Myx, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
    I have a few things in mind. And will be changing all three tomorrow. Two are somewhat minor and one is the **Wildcard Hopeful**. Most of the times I don't mention stuff like this beforehand because some people would argue the point. I just like testing before and after results though and let that speak for themselves. I'm putting this out here for transparency. I'll mention the two minor things first.

    1) Putting Stock Front pIpe/Exhaust Back on: Why?
    1st reason: Changing the front pipe and exhaust showed no changes in 1/4 mile times or trap speeds. I currently have the 3" PRL Front Pipe and 3" Injen exhaust to 2.5" In/Out muffler. Great sounding exhaust. Very muted and almost quiet. But 'Something' is still making contact with my exhaust and I'm thinking the front pipe is at it again but I can't visually see where when it was obvious before.

    2nd reason: I had the 3" exhaust pipe to front pipe expanded to 3". You see on a lot of the aftermarket exhausts have this reduction at this section. You can see....from the outside...that mine is expanded. However, I never visually got to see if the flange connection was actually opened up to 3". Maybe I'm just anal about these things but I never did and I was clear I wanted this opening to be 3", not just the pipe coming from it. So...I need to see it to satisfy my own curiousity.

    3rd reason: A few years back when I was testing a J's racing exhaust on my 2015 Honda Fit, I did some 1/4 mile runs one night and ran some great times. See here --> Honda Fit on Steroids The J's Racing 50R muffler was too loud for my taste though. So the very next morning, I had it changed out for a much quieter straight through muffler and went back to the same track that morning for more testing. I ran slightly better 1/4 mile times. When I went over the data, all weather and track conditions was about the same. Air intake temps was the same as well. Car was just quieter. What I saw on my Torque Pro app was that my timing advanced a few degrees more that morning vs what it was maxing out during that night. The only thing I could attribute that more timing advance too was that the car was quieter. This made me think the loud noise from the J's racing muffler may have affected my knock retard somewhat. Fast forward to this 10th gen platform and our really sensitive knock sensors on the Non-Si. What if If my already sensitive knock sensor is becoming slightly more active due to the 3" exhaust sounds it's making at wide open throttle. Timing could be being slightly retarded, effecting my 1/4 mile times...slightly. I'm already running the Si turbo and my current tune is pretty much the same as an aggressive Si tune, despite my slightly higher stock compression. So I want to rule out my knock sensor's sensitivity being any more aggressive than it has to be.

    2) Sealing the Myxal SRI-CAI (Air Tight): I'll be removing the intake tomorrow and sealing it to make sure it is air tight. I don't want even a tiny bit of heat to get in and trap as much air coming in to be forced to stay in the box. Even if this will gain me .08, it's worth it to me because I have issues.

    3) Even Smaller/Lighter Tires: **Not Recommending Trying This At Home** This is something I toy with on all my cars and is SUPER fun with great results.
    Here's my experiment. The detail details can be found HERE though....in the very first post.
    In a nutshell,
    a) I'm reducing my tire diameter by 2". This will change my gear ratio from stock 4.811 to 5.13 (What I have now) to 5.31 (What I'll have tomorrow).
    b) Car height dropped to 1.5" (Current tires) to 2" lower (Tomorrow).
    c) Wheel Weight dropped from 48.8lbs (Stock) to 35.6lbs (Now). Tomorrow wheel weight will be 31.6lbs (Tomorrow).
    ***This means total rotation mass from stock will be dropped by -73lbs total (Counting all 4 wheels).

    With my current setup, all of the mass was reduced with the wheel (Enkeis). My tires I have now are the same weight as the stock tires (21lbs). My gearing was changed though because my tire diameter is smaller by 1.5", bringing the weight closer to the axle (4.811 to 5.13). Which is a good thing.
    Tomorrow, I'll be bringing the most critical part of rotational mass (The outer weigh....the tire) even closer to the axle for even more aggressive gearing. AND my tires weigh 17lbs a piece (5lbs less than the ones I have now). That is a 25% reduction is outside rotational mass as well as bringing it closer to the drive axle. I'm SUPER excited about this. I just don't know what it'll translate too.

    Again, I've done this multiple times on multiple cars. The tires are great tires btw (205/50-15 Vredestein Quatrac 5). <~~~~ Feel free to click the name, scroll down and look at the survey stats of the tires. They blow my current ones away (which suck in rain and snow but I drive like a Grandpa anyways). Feel free to compare them to the stockers or any tire that you may currently be using. I didn't just randomly pick these. I don't autocross or hit corners at high speeds so I'm good.


    So...this is where my thinking has been going the past few days. Tomorrow will be a busy day. I'll be testing all the above this Wednesday (Weather Pending). Temps are looking to be around 78F but I have to take what I can get. Fingers crossed for good traction and the hope to run a 13.3 or less. :) This is my plan......
     
    Remm, CrippleRipple and 86salmon thanked this.
  6. OP
    OP
    Myx

    Myx Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Posts:
    1,234
    Thanked:
    938
    Location:
    Delaware
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
    #6 Myx, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
    Thanks for the kind words my friend. You know you've convinced me to join the dark side (Get an Accord). There's a good chance I'll be trading this in for one sometime next year or so. ;) Your car's a beast.

    BTW: I LOVE bracket racing. I haven't done any this year though. Maybe I'll hittup an event or two before the year is out. Here are a few of my winnings.... Even won an HDAY event for the team. :p

    Trophies.jpg
     
    Civics4Ever and CrippleRipple thanked this.
  7. gtman

    gtman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Posts:
    5,603
    Thanked:
    5,887
    Occupation:
    CivicX addict
    Location:
    U S of A
    First Name:
    Mitch
    Car(s):
    2017 Cosmic Blue Civic EX-L
    Myx has done an amazing job. One thing to point out is I believe he does run on much lighter and much smaller diameter 15" wheels/tires.
     
    Myx thanked this.
  8. CrippleRipple

    CrippleRipple Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Posts:
    487
    Thanked:
    267
    Location:
    Kansas
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic Si (LSM) & 2018 Honda Accord Sport 2.0T (CBP)
    Haha! I knew it...you'll absolutely love it, I wondered since you kept asking about it! Can't wait to see what you do with that thing!
    I looked at your old slips and sent those to my friend as well.....drop that 60 foot and you are golden man. You have the mph for it!
    Hopefully that rotational weight lose will get you there!

    Yep, he's a smart guy! Looks like he has this down pretty good, hopefully dropping even more rotational weight/mass will help!
     
    Myx thanked this.
  9. CrippleRipple

    CrippleRipple Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2018
    Posts:
    487
    Thanked:
    267
    Location:
    Kansas
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic Si (LSM) & 2018 Honda Accord Sport 2.0T (CBP)
    Nice trophy's man, I'd be proud of all those!
    I love bracket racing, my Fit was a blast too!
    I couldn't believe I took 2nd at IFO Heartland Park with the Si manual last year!

    I don't want to go up against you though ever! lol
     
    Myx thanked this.
  10. OP
    OP
    Myx

    Myx Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Posts:
    1,234
    Thanked:
    938
    Location:
    Delaware
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
    Likewise! I'd probably hit the guardrail seeing you blasting by me.
     
  11. OP
    OP
    Myx

    Myx Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Posts:
    1,234
    Thanked:
    938
    Location:
    Delaware
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
    #11 Myx, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
    Myxal Math

    See this link for where the below formula comes from ----> Lightweight Wheels for Better 1/4 Mile Times
    Original Thread this came from....found by mistake -----> HERE
    Take note of the author of this article's results.
    When his moment of inertia increased (Bigger Wheel/More Weight) by 20%, his 1/4 mile times increased by +0.6.
    When his moment of inertia decreases (Smaller Wheel/Less Weight) by 24%, his 1/4 mile time decreased by -0.5.



    Formula for Inertia:
    General formula: I = mr^2 = mass * radius * radius
    Inertia = Inerita of wheel + Inertia of the tire
    Inertia = m1 * (r1²) + m2 * (r2²)

    My Current Wheel/Tire Setup (Now)
    Wheel: Enkei J10 15X6.5"
    Mass of Wheel: 14.6lbs
    Radius of wheel: r1 = 7.5"
    Tire: Kumho Ecsta AST 225/50-15
    Mass of tire: m2 = 21 lb
    Radius of tire: r2 = 11.9"

    Inertia = 14.6 * (7.5²) + 21 * (11.9²)
    Inertia = 821 + 2974
    Inertia = 3795


    My New Wheel Tire Setup (Tomorrow)
    Wheel: Enkei J10 15X6.5"
    Mass of wheel: 14.6lbs
    Radius of wheel: r1 = 7.5"
    Tire: Vredestein Quatrac 5 205/50-15
    Mass of tire: m2 = 17 lb
    Radius of tire: r2 = 11.5"

    Inertia = 14.4 * (7.5²) + 17 * (11.5²)
    Inertia = 821 + 2248
    Inertia = 3069

    3069/3795 = 0.81 or 81%
    In other words, the new Inertia will be 19% less than what I have now. So if results are anything like what the guy got on his inertia page, my 1/4 mile times should improve by -0.5 to -0.6 from my current average of 13.5. So a theoretical 13.0. :rofl: Nah man..... :crazy:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ok....let me try something else.
    Gonna use my current tire size and the new tire size.
    Current: 225/50-15
    New: 205/50-15
    According to Miata.net

    225/50-15 Revs Per Mile = 845
    205/50-15 Revs Per Mile = 874

    The 1/4 mile is 1320ft.
    So the 225/50-15's will rotate 211.25 times in a 1/4 mile (845/4).
    The 205/50-15's will rotate 218.5 times in a 1/4 mile. (874/4).

    Since I'm currently running a 13.5 on average with current tires.......(13.5/218.5) X 211.25 = 13.05 in the 1/4 mile. o_O


    This is all bullshi*! I'm not good at math. Expect 13.6-13.9's. I know how this shi* works. :rofl:

    Oh yeah, since I'm on a roll with bullshi* math.
    My average 60ft time is 2.17 now. The 1/4 mile (1320ft) can be divided up by 60ft 22x (1320/60=22).
    My current tires rotate 211.25 times in a 1/4 mile. This is 3.52 rotations in 60ft. (211.25/60ft)
    With the new tires it will rotate 218.5 times in a 1/4 mile. This is 3.64 rotations in 60ft. (218.5/60ft)
    What does this mean? (2.17/3.64) X 3.52 = 2.0 seconds.
    Same grip, same hp/tq, same weather conditions, I should be able to click off a 2.0 60ft time with the new setup.


    ****EDIT****
    After reading several tests in online forums, the REAL LIFE result seems to be that I should be able to drop about 2/10ths of a second in the 1/4 mile. That means a new average of 13.3s with a possible best of a 13.2 (Between 60f - 75f at the same track previous tests were done at ---- Cecil County Raceway). Real Life new 60ft time is expecting to be about 2.10 60ft. Just Keepin' It Real!!
     
  12. gtman

    gtman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2015
    Posts:
    5,603
    Thanked:
    5,887
    Occupation:
    CivicX addict
    Location:
    U S of A
    First Name:
    Mitch
    Car(s):
    2017 Cosmic Blue Civic EX-L
    #12 gtman, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
    gtman non-math - gut feeling based on decades of driving and experimenting...

    The lighter tire (unsprung weight) and a 3% shorter tire (gearing) should get you some gains. I'd be surprised to see a 1/2 second come off though.

    Also about those tire weights. Those numbers I see posted at tire sellers aren't always accurate. And your current tire being worn obviously weighs a tiny bit less then it did new. Weigh them on your bathroom scale for shits and giggles.

    On a side note let me know what you think of the Vredestein's. They look to have a nice balance between performance, ride quality and winter traction.
     
    Myx thanked this.
  13. TypeSiR

    TypeSiR Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Posts:
    924
    Thanked:
    603
    Occupation:
    Car Driver
    Location:
    SoCal
    Car(s):
    1.5T Civic, CTR, MX5
    Have you looked into getting a LiFePo battery (500+ CCA) to reduce 25 lbs from the front of the car?
     
    Myx thanked this.
  14. OP
    OP
    Myx

    Myx Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Posts:
    1,234
    Thanked:
    938
    Location:
    Delaware
    Car(s):
    2018 Honda Civic EX (Hatchback/CVT)
    I weighed the Vredesteins this morning. TireRack's distribution center is literally one block from my house. :spaz: It weighed exactly 17lbs on my bathroom scale.




    Yes sir! I was reading about them Friday night. This battery along with Braille battery. I have some more research to do on them. Had decent results using an Odyssey and Evolution Ballistic batteries on my 2010 Rav4 and 2015 Honda Civic. The Evolution Ballistic was only 2lbs but they went out of business. I have some concerns about removing weight off the front end of the car and traction. Weight is weight though....thanks.
     
    gtman thanked this.
  15. milk_jug

    milk_jug Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Posts:
    43
    Thanked:
    33
    Location:
    NY
    Car(s):
    18 si sedan
    Brb ordering 15” enkei wheels.
     
    dallasjhawk and Myx thanked this.
Loading...

Share This Page

Loading...