Will I get torque steer changing wheel size?

Brandon2696 said:

Hi,

I’m thinking of changing my wheel size from the standard 20” x 8.5” ET60 to 19” x 9” ET43.

Will this give me any torque steer or should it be okay? I know people are running 18” x 9.5” but personally the 18s are too small for me.

Thanks,
Brandon

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Short answer, yes, you'll get torque steer.

Well, mathematically, if you change your ET by 1 mm, you'll get torque steer. It's just like saying if you spend one dollar, do you have less money in your bank account, well of course you do. The question is whether it's noticeable. I have ET53 wheels and I notice torque steer, but it's minor (but more noticeable in the rain). I don't think I would like the feel of ET43 wheels being more than 2x as bad as my ET53s, but many on this board wouldn't notice and really want you to know that it doesn't matter.

ET43 wheels are 17 mm off from ET60, ET53 is only 7 mm off. 17 mm is a significant lever arm.

I have 20" oz rim with et34..
There is Torque steering, and is noticeable especially fast accelerating, i just dont care as the wheel sit flush to the fender..
The fender gap with et60 look stupid.

I think ur set will look fine and you will feel just little bit torque steering if you are sensitive to it.
It isnt that bad, if thats the wheel you want, go for it...

Turns out the wheels I want I can only give in 8.5” width So going off this chart, it says the maximum tyre width I can use is 255mm. Will this have any negative effects on the handling having a wider tyre than “ideal” for the width of the wheel? Just I want a wider tyre for increased grip.

Also will it have a noticeable difference in appearance in the way the wheel sits in the tyre? Thanks!

Brandon2696 said:

Turns out the wheels I want I can only give in 8.5” width So going off this chart, it says the maximum tyre width I can use is 255mm. Will this have any negative effects on the handling having a wider tyre than “ideal” for the width of the wheel? Just I want a wider tyre for increased grip.

Also will it have a noticeable difference in appearance in the way the wheel sits in the tyre? Thanks!

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you will be fine for 8.5 width with 255 tires.. no ill effect, it is not like you are stretching the sidewall out. for look, you cant tell, it is just 5mm different on either edge.
I am also running 255 on my 8.5 x 20" rim, it looks great.

but, if it is for grip, instead of just think about wider, choose a big brand.
like a 245mm ps4s will grip way better than 265mm Indy 500. put the money where it matters.

I still find it hilarious people try to argue this when others who have ran multiple wheel setups are telling you there is zero difference.

"But I read one article that said..."

.grimace said:

I still find it hilarious people try to argue this when others who have ran multiple wheel setups are telling you there is zero difference.

"But I read one article that said..."

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The issue is people in this thread that have quoted these articles also say that they are running XXX wheel and notice slight torque steer.

Edit: it’s not a I’m going to rip the wheel out of your hands torque steer, but still torque steer none the less.

Well.. I run 20" oz, with ET34.. is there torque steering, yes it has
does it bother me, not really.
would I still buy this aggressive offset wheels again, definitely. ET60 wheel gap hurt my eyes.
In terms of handling, torque steering is there, but the car still turn in the corner like straight line..

tinyman392 said:

The issue is people in this thread that have quoted these articles also say that they are running XXX wheel and notice slight torque steer.

Edit: it’s not a I’m going to rip the wheel out of your hands torque steer, but still torque steer none the less.

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I'd love to see a video of it.

My guess is anyone who changed wheels and is claiming they have torque steer went to a less sticky tire and that is actually what is causing their issues

123sillyboy123 said:

you will be fine for 8.5 width with 255 tires.. no ill effect, it is not like you are stretching the sidewall out. for look, you cant tell, it is just 5mm different on either edge.
I am also running 255 on my 8.5 x 20" rim, it looks great.

but, if it is for grip, instead of just think about wider, choose a big brand.
like a 245mm ps4s will grip way better than 265mm Indy 500. put the money where it matters.

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Great. Yeah I think I’m going to get the 19”x8.5” with the 255 then. Yeah I’d always put PS4S’s on anyway. Just want the wider tyre to utilize the contact patch

.grimace said:

I'd love to see a video of it.

My guess is anyone who changed wheels and is claiming they have torque steer went to a less sticky tire and that is actually what is causing their issues

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I think I've said this before, three sets of wheels, all 245 width tires:

• Continental SportContact - 6 245/30/20 on 20x8.5 +60: no torque steer
• Nitto NeoGen 245/30/20 on 20x8.5 +60: no torque steer
• Michelin PS AS3+ 245/40/18 on 18x8 +42: slight torque steer

I'd rate the traction of each setup as: SportContact 6 >> PS AS3+ > NeoGen*. For this comparison, all that really matters is the PS AS3+ and the NeoGen though. If you want to be super specific:

• Hot dry: SC6 >> NG
• Hot wet: SC6 >>> NG
• Warm dry: SC6 > AS3+ >= NG
• Warm wet: SC6 > AS3+ >> NG
• Cool dry: AS3+ >= NG >= SC6
• Cool wet: AS3+ >= SC6 > NG
• Freezing dry: AS3+ = NG
• Freezing wet: AS3+ >>> NG
• Freezing snow/slush: AS3+ >> NG

The fact that the very not sticky NeoGen has no torque steer but the slightly stickier PS AS3+ does kind of counters your statement. The interesting thing about this is that for all intents and purposes, the AS3+ is better than the NG in every single category except for one where I'd subjectively rate them as about the same. There isn't a single category where the NG provide more traction than the AS3+, yet the torque steer appears with the AS3+.

Additionally, if your statement regarding stickiness were true, you'd actually see torque steer improve as the temps get closer to the optimal temps for a given tire. Or conversely, a super sticky summer tire at +42 would start inducing torque steer at lower temps, when cold, or even in adverse weather (rain/snow). Unfortunately, these conditions don't affect the torque steer of any of the tire setups I've done above. I've never heard anyone make a testimonial that their torque steer gets better or worse in X condition (for those that have or don't have torque steer); granted a lack of counterexample doesn't mean that a counter example doesn't exist. Though this typically isn't a statement that's ever made.

*Keep in mind that treadwear ratings are not cross compatible between tire manufacturers as they are legally allowed to make the number lower than it actually is, just not over quote a high number. For this reason, there are manufacturers that will create a low number just to stay on the safe side (NeoGen as an example). Thus, treadwear is not a good indication of how "sticky" a compound is. I've seen this value used to say that a tire is "not sticky", etc. so I'm mentioning it here. A coefficient of friction might be a better value to use, but that will vary based on temperature and surface quality (for example all the stuff above).

Except the nitto neogen has a TW rating of 280 vs the AS3+ is 500 lol.

Like I said it’s all tires you’re not comparing like tires. Those as3+ will show torque steer because they don’t grip well. Kind of made my point for me

According to some people my 18x10 +40 should torque steer off the road... even with more power the torque steer is still not perceivable in most conditions.

So no “Bob” you will not feel torque steer on your way to get groceries.

Lust said:

According to some people my 18x10 +40 should torque steer off the road... even with more power the torque steer is still not perceivable in most conditions.

So no “Bob” you will not feel torque steer on your way to get groceries.

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Love it!!! Coming from my tuner mk6 GTI on all seasons and no LSD... I feel like I could put any offset on this car and be fine.

.grimace said:

Except the nitto neogen has a TW rating of 280 vs the AS3+ is 500 lol.

Like I said it’s all tires you’re not comparing like tires. Those as3+ will show torque steer because they don’t grip well. Kind of made my point for me

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I made a statement regarding comparing treadwear across different manufacturers and that they are completely not comparable in advanced mind you, since you made that comparison last time. A manufacture is legally allowed to quote a lower treadwear rating, but not allowed to quote a higher one. Because of that, every single tire's treadwear is normally downrated (lower). Based on mileage, the Nitto TW rating should be slightly higher than the PS AS3+ and should be more than twice that of the Continental. The AS3+ is the stickier tire but also the one that torque steers! Read on to find out why you should not compare treadwear ratings between different manufacturers since it's extremely flawed and why you really should stop using it as an analog for "stickiness".

Since treadwear is a function (linearly) with expected mileage, let's compare on a level playing field and look at expected miles. I'll be comparing the SportContact 6 (SC6), NeoGen (NNG), and PS AS3+ (AS3):
SC6 : 10-15k miles expected. For my driving style, I would have expected 12-15k.
NNG : 45-50k miles expected. Swapped them out with around 25k on them, still had a little under 50% life left.
AS3 : 40-45k miles. After 8k miles, lost about 1/5 life.

We don't know which treadwear is ground truth, but we can assume each one is and look at the numbers that pop out. We'll create 3 sets of TW ratings and see what looks out of place, we'll call them TW-C, TW-N, and TW-M (for Conti, Nitto, and Michi, respectively).

TW-C assumes 15k miles = 240 TW, so if we go through the computations we get that the SC6 = 160-240 TW, NNG = 720-800 TW, AS3 = 640-800 TW. NNG has a relative error rate of about 155% while AS3 has an error rate of about 30%.

TW-N assumes 50k miles = 280 TW, so if we go through the computations we get that the SC6 = 60-80 TW, NNG = 250-280 TW, AS3 = 220-280 TW. SC6 has an error rate of 75% and the AS3 has an error rate of 55%.

TW-M assumes 45k miles = 500 TW, so if we go through the computations we get that the SC6 = 110-170 TW, NNG = 500-560 TW, and AS3 = 440-500 TW. SC6 has an error rate of 30% and the NNG has an error rate of 80%.

Notice how none of these agree with each other in the slightest and the relative errors to one another are pretty high.

Edit: even the class of tire for each one should raise major red flags as to how off the NeoGen TW rating is since it's classed as a UHP all-season tire with the PS AS3+ yet has a TW rating similar to the UHP summer tire? Either it's not a UHP all-season or the TW rating is wrong. Based on mileage and the tire's ability to actually get traction in -40 degree weather, it's definitely a UHP all-season. Either that or the PS AS3+ tire should have a 250 TW rating and the Continentals should have a TW rating of 120.

Edit 2: the Contintental and Michelin TW ratings at least somewhat agree with each other (if you want to call a 30% relative error somewhat agreeing). The complete outcast is the Nitto TW rating which is completely off from my experiences as its TW rating should be about double what it's quoted as based on the mileage I got off of it.

Edit 3: knowing how tire manufacturers tweak their TW ratings (legally) to allow tires that wouldn't be allowed in competition to be allowed in competition also makes me want to be weary of even comparing TW ratings within a given brand/manufacturer.

I'm done ranting now. Long story short, TW ratings are more or less BS.

Wait no one has torque steer on the stock rims/tires?